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  • #16
    Originally posted by greves View Post
    Indeed this is only the case for SD/SMP/SMA, but not for a Kursus, where the only requirement is SMA/SMK, three years experience, and a certificate of competence in the subject to be taught (local or otherwise).
    I've quickly read the Permen 41/1966 but do not think that it concerns foreign work force and this for various reasons. It concerns local work force. I am afraid that a school would never get an IMTA for a foreigner who would have this credential:

    2. Kursus dan pelatihan yang berfungsi untuk meningkatkan keterampilan praktis
    a. kualifikasi akademik minimal lulusan SMA/SMK/MA/Paket C
    b. sertifikat kompetensi sebagai pembimbing pada kursus dan pelatihan
    c. pengalaman kerja pada bidangnya minimal tiga tahun.

    Foreign work force working in the Education have their own specific statute which is the Permen 66/2009 and this is where you should concentrate, along with the decrees which were passed to implement it and those listed in the Permen 66/2009 itself.

    Foreign workers are tenaga kerja ahli reputed performing job that a local can't do. No offense intended but I doubt that the above credential can be considered by Diknas and Nakertrans as the credential of a tenaga kerja ahli. It concerns local work force who would be employed in a language mill for a conversation course.
    The question you have to ask you is: can a school mill argue that it requires a foreigner for a simple conversation course? The answer Diknas would give them is a simple no. Don't forget one thing: a school has to submit a RPTKA before getting an IMTA. The RPTKA gives a job description for each position sought for a foreigner and it has to be approved. If a language mill would say that they require a foreigner for a simple conversation course to enhance the practice of english, there are in my opinion no way that it gets approved by nakertrans. You don't need a foreigner at all cost for that, I am afraid. To teach, nakertrans would agree that you need a native speaker. The language mill would have to present him/her as a teacher to get the RPTKA a chance to be approved. To "meningkatkan keterampilan praktis" doesn't sound, IMHO that a RPTKA stipulating the need of foreign work force for it would receive any chance to be approved. Keep in mind that it isn't because a company/yayasan WANTS to have foreigners on its pay roll that they will be AUTHORIZED to by nakertrans and diknas.It wil all depend on multiple criterias, including how they write their RPTKA and label the job description.

    Again, I am not a specialist of Education Law, but that's my feeling/opinion.

    I also think that you guys may be mistaken in the way you read the article 3 PerMen 66/2009:

    [COLOR=#333333](1) Pendidik asing wajib memiliki kualifikasi akademik, kompetensi, sertifikat pendidik dan tenaga kependidikan, sehat jasmani dan rohani, serta memiliki kemampuan untuk mendukung perwujudan tujuan pendidikan nasional.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#333333](2) Kualifikasi akademik sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) ditentukan sebagai berikut :[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#333333]a. berpendidikan sekurang-kurangnya sarjana dari perguruan tinggi yang terakreditasi sesuai dengan bidang ilmu yang diampu bagi pendidik pada satuan pendidikan formal pada jenjang pendidikan dasar dan menengah, termasuk taman kanak-kanak (TK), raudatul athfal/bustanul athfal (RA/BA);[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#333333]b. berpendidikan sekurang-kurangnya doktor dari perguruan tinggi yang terakreditasi sesuai dengan bidang ilmu dan program pendidikan yang diampu bagi pendidik pada satuan pendidikan tinggi;[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#333333]c. berpendidikan sesuai dengan bidang ilmu yang diampu dari perguruan tinggi yang terakreditasi bagi pendidik pada satuan pendidikan nonformal;[/COLOR]
    (3) Pendidik asing untuk pembelajaran bahasa asing, baik untuk pendidikan formal maupun nonformal adalah penutur asli bahasa asing yang bersangkutan yang mempunyai sertifikat pendidik untuk bahasa tersebut.

    If you read it correctly, ayat (3) never says that English teachers are exempted of the requirement of ayat (1) and (2). Ayat (3) just add a precision concerning English teachers, without exempting them from ayat (1) and ayat (2). It says that a foreign language teacher (Pendidik asing untuk pembelajaran bahasa asing) has to be a Native speaker of the language taught (penutur asli bahasa asing) and that he/she has to be certified with a teaching certificate of the language taught.
    It never says that they are not subjected to ayat (1) and ayat (2). If they were not requested to be S1 minimum, it would be noted in an huruf d in ayat (2) which would be written in the line of "native speakers teaching a foreign language only require...blablabla" . The fact that it comes in an ayat (3) shows that it is an additionnal condition.

    If you read pasal 1 it stipulates:

    Dalam Peraturan Menteri ini yang dimaksud dengan :
    1. Pendidik asing adalah guru, dosen, tutor, instruktur, fasilitator, konselor, pengajar, penutur asli bahasa, dan koordinator akademis yang berkewarganegaraan asing, baik pada satuan pendidikan formal maupun nonformal

    Again this shows you that penutur asli bahasa are pendidik asing and therefore compelled by the requirement of article 3 ayat (1) and (2).
    Last edited by atlantis; 24-05-12, 17:31.

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    • #17
      This is very interesting. I know you're really busy Atlantis, so thanks for being involved in this debate.

      I know this is Indonesia, but still....Don't you find it odd that teachers of other subjects do NOT need a teaching certificate in their field, yet a language teacher needs one? Aside from the fact that it would be pretty redundant because "terakreditasi sesuai dengan bidang ilmu dan program pendidikan yang diampu" requires that their degree be a match for what they're teaching.

      What I mean is, a teacher of maths would need a degree in maths. A teacher of science would need a degree in science. If we take this to the strictest interpretation, then teachers would need educational degree(s) in the subject(s) they teach. It doesn't actually that an educational degree is required, however.

      Yet, for a language teacher who is a native speaker of that language, they have to have both a degree and a cert? Why would a language teacher who has a bachelor's of English Education have to have a cert and a health ed teacher who had a non-educational bachelor's of health ed NOT need a cert? It really isn't sensible.

      I'm sure your interpretation is probably the way they'll look at it but WTF? It just isn't right to single out language teachers. Again, I know, this is Indonesia and things don't always make sense, but ARGH!

      Let me add this poser: If clause 3 stipulates that language teachers must be native speakers of the language they teach (ignoring the rest here as it's not relevant to my question), how is it that I have repeatedly seen NON-native speakers hired to teach a foreign language? I've seen people from the Philippines, the Netherlands, India, Sweden, Ireland (not UK), and other countries all hired to teach English, for example, some at XX (you know the course I mean), others at regular private schools. How can they manage to get a permit for someone who clearly isn't qualified under the law (even with a bachelor's degree AND a cert), yet a native speaker with only a cert can't work?
      I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
        Yet, for a language teacher who is a native speaker of that language, they have to have both a degree and a cert? Why would a language teacher who has a bachelor's of English Education have to have a cert and a health ed teacher who had a non-educational bachelor's of health ed NOT need a cert? It really isn't sensible.

        I'm sure your interpretation is probably the way they'll look at it but WTF? It just isn't right to single out language teachers. Again, I know, this is Indonesia and things don't always make sense, but ARGH!
        Let me take a wild guess: In Diknas pejabat's mind there are a lot of Indonesian who can teach english in an acceptable manner. However, there are not a lot of indonesian mathematics teachers who are able to teach mathematics in english. This would explain why they try to limit the number of foreign teacher teaching english or to only authorize the most qualified one. One thing also is to be considered: they know that the pool they are fishing in when it comes to english teachers has way more fishes than the science or mathematics teachers pond has fishes. They can therefore afford to be more selective.
        However, one day, they will wake up and realize that there is not many native english teacher having a degree in English willing to teach in Indonesia, especially with the type of salaries most english mills and average national plus school propose.

        Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
        Let me add this poser: If clause 3 stipulates that language teachers must be native speakers of the language they teach (ignoring the rest here as it's not relevant to my question), how is it that I have repeatedly seen NON-native speakers hired to teach a foreign language? I've seen people from the Philippines, the Netherlands, India, Sweden, Ireland (not UK), and other countries all hired to teach English, for example, some at XX (you know the course I mean), others at regular private schools. How can they manage to get a permit for someone who clearly isn't qualified under the law (even with a bachelor's degree AND a cert), yet a native speaker with only a cert can't work?
        The regulation is enforced little by little. In some place and for some schools they are more tolerant. If you consider my earlier comment (there is not many native english teacher having a degree in English willing to teach in Indonesia, especially with the type of salaries most english mills and average national plus school propose) being a valid and apt comment, you will easily agree that finding such teacher to teach in an anonymous national plus school in Brebes, Jateng for 4,5 millions is next to impossible. Diknas can't be that stupid not to realize that they will have to enforce it selectively in some cases.
        You also need to keep in mind that big franchises have connections and money. They can't afford not to have foreigners on their pay roll, at least for marketing purposes if it's not out of concern for quality education. With connections and money it's always easier to have a dutch, a south african or a polish passport mistaken as an american;, a british or an australian passport.

        But anyway, I believe that non native speakers will become quickly a rarity especially those who wouldn't have the credential and experience requested by the regulation. Diknas doesn't seem to be willing to be as indulgent as in the past.
        Last edited by atlantis; 24-05-12, 17:39.

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        • #19
          A quick search of the web for online degrees, 549 USD for an acrredited degree in your hands in 5 days.
          Has anyone tried this method?
          Worth a shot at least.
          Do we really beleive they examine and check in miniscual detail the details of the degree, .....aghhh come on this is Indonesia, that I just cannot imagine, let alone of the cost of an international call as well has the 15 minutes it would take and interupt their web browsing session...
          [FONT=Verdana]As a stranger give it welcome.
          There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
          Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
          [/FONT]

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          • #20
            Atlantis: I can't disagree with anything you wrote, although I still don't like it and I hope your optimistic opinion of DikNas will turn out to be correct. The only people like me who are working in Indonesia are the ones where SOMEONE has pulled some strings (usually the employer). I wonder if publishing a book about education would make me more palatable?

            Kim & Mika: You should look at what company is accrediting that "university" (aka paper mill). I once looked at one that was offering me a to-good-to-be-true deal and saw it was accredited. I went from there to the accrediting company's website that was linked, and the accrediting institution's website layout was almost identical to the university's, along with a few other anomalies which made me realize it was no more accredited than any other paper mill. I suspect no paper mills in the world can get accredited for anything, unless it's a black market offer from a "legit" uni - which they wouldn't offer on the Internet (I think).

            There are any number of people with those fake degrees. I seem to remember that several years ago there was a government official in the US who got caught with a fake degree, but I can't recall the name, etc.

            Atlantis: What would happen if, by some miracle, the Indonesian gov't actually checked someone's credentials and found a fake degree, aside from denying the IMTA? Would there be any legal repercussions, such as jailing, fine, or deportation? I don't advocate any such behavior - stupid laws or not - and I think I can guess that Immigration, Education & Labor laws all have penalties for it.
            I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

            Comment


            • #21
              Atlantis: What would happen if, by some miracle, the Indonesian gov't actually checked someone's credentials and found a fake degree, aside from denying the IMTA? Would there be any legal repercussions, such as jailing, fine, or deportation? I don't advocate any such behavior - stupid laws or not - and I think I can guess that Immigration, Education & Labor laws all have penalties for it.
              I've heard of a number of places (including so-called "international schools") who will knowingly employ teachers with fake degrees or will even make up a fake degree for the teacher themselves. What I really struggle to get my head around - and, yes, I know this is Indonesia - is why they have such stringent regulations yet they do absolutely nothing to prevent them from being so easily circumnavigated; it all seems such a waste of time. Obviously schools indulge in this behaviour because they know there is very little likelihood of a degree being verified, but, like ReveurGAM, I'm also curious as to what repurcussions there would be if a degree was to be discovered to have been forged, particularly if a KITAS had already been issued.
              Last edited by Tudor; 24-05-12, 22:50. Reason: spelling
              And the young people ask, what are they marching for? And I ask myself the same question.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
                Atlantis: What would happen if, by some miracle, the Indonesian gov't actually checked someone's credentials and found a fake degree, aside from denying the IMTA? Would there be any legal repercussions, such as jailing, fine, or deportation? I don't advocate any such behavior - stupid laws or not - and I think I can guess that Immigration, Education & Labor laws all have penalties for it.
                Originally posted by Tudor View Post
                I'm also curious as to what repurcussions there would be if a degree was to be discovered to have been forged, particularly if a KITAS had already been issued.
                The labor law has no criminal provisions for employees from what I recall. I need to double check, but I doubt it. It addresses employers . Nevertheless, the Immigration law, the Education law and the KUHP have enough stipulations to chill out most people.

                Education law: UU 20/2003 tentang Sistem Pendidikan Nasional

                Pasal 69
                (1) Setiap orang yang menggunakan ijazah, sertifikat kompetensi, gelar akademik, profesi, dan/atau vokasi yang terbukti palsu dipidana dengan pidana penjara paling lama lima tahun dan/atau pidana denda paling banyak Rp.500.000.000,00 (lima ratus juta rupiah).
                (2) Setiap orang yang dengan sengaja tanpa hak menggunakan ijazah dan/atau sertifikat kompetensi sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 61 ayat (2) dan ayat (3) yang terbukti palsu dipidana dengan pidana penjara paling lama lima tahun dan/atau pidana denda paling banyak Rp.500.000.000,00 (lima ratus juta rupiah).

                Quicly translated, for non indonesianist, the ayat (1) means that anyone using a diploma, a certificate of competence, and academic, professional or vocational and technical diplomawhich is proven to have been obtained fraudulently may be sentenced to a maximum jail term of five years and/or a maximum fine of IDR 500.000.000
                In the same law, article 68 ayat (2, (3) and (4) should also be considered, depending on one's situation/case.

                Immigration law: UU 6/2011 tentang Keimigrasian RI

                Pasal 123
                Dipidana dengan pidana penjara paling lama 5 (lima) tahun dan pidana denda paling banyak Rp500.000.000,00 (lima ratus juta rupiah):
                a. setiap orang yang dengan sengaja memberikan surat atau data palsu atau yang dipalsukan atau keterangan tidak benar dengan maksud untuk memperoleh Visa atau Izin Tinggal bagi dirinya sendiri atau orang lain;
                b. setiap Orang Asing yang dengan sengaja menggunakan Visa atau Izin Tinggal sebagaimana dimaksud dalam huruf a untuk masuk dan/atau berada di Wilayah Indonesia.


                Again, a roughly translated it would mean that anyone who intentionally provides false data or document or an incorrect or forged information in order to obtain a visa or a residence/visit permit for himself/herself or for anyone else may be sentenced to a maximum of a 5 years jail sentence and/or a maximum fine of IDR 500.000.000

                From memory, there are also stiffer provisions in the KUHP (Indonesian penal code) which may apply (see Bab XII: Pemalsuan Surat pasal 263 & 264) but I guess that the above is already giving you an indication.

                As per article 21 (4) KUHAP (Indonesian criminal procedure code), the infraction being liable to imprisonment of 5 years or more, an immediate incarceration may be considered and authorized. Don't worry, if it happens I have no doubt that police and prosecutors will share their consideration with you in order for you to share some of your extra wealth in return.

                Basically, it makes little doubt to me that some schools indulge in such scheme and provide fake certificate/degree when it's necessary. Photoshop works wonders. However, one should know that if the sh1t hits the fan, I doubt that it's the school which will be covered with it.
                This being said, I doubt that the mess would go up to an incarceration and court (especially the former) for most cases. It will be solved by a deportation and a blacklisting, unless it involves several fakes or that a case goes public for any reason or that a school fill a formal complaint.
                Also, we don't know yet how motivated and committed Immigration officers are to fully enforce the new stipulations of the UU Keimigrasian. They have a bunch of new super powers and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised that in the next couple of years they would be tempted to try to see how a few articles do in court.

                As a matter of fact, a case has been reported a couple of days ago in indonesian medias. Though it doesn't concern foreigners, it may be interesting to keep an eye on it. See here: http://www.republika.co.id/berita/na...-ijazah-online
                Last edited by atlantis; 25-05-12, 08:52.

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                • #23
                  I knew about the Immigration and Labor stuff already, but thank you for the other stuff. I have difficulty in figuring out the words to use when searching online for laws, rules and regulations, partially because of prefixes and suffixes, and my flawed understanding of Indonesian. I guess the rest is a combination of always having trouble searching online and stupidity. Of course, as you already pointed out, not everything gets posted to the Internet.

                  Interesting article that you found. If the police were searching internationally, they undoubtedly found some of the overseas sites that send me spam offering fake degrees (they go directly into my spam folder now, thankfully!). If that is the case, and they actually had people who understood the languages used on those sites (mostly English?), then it is possible that they have a record of overseas operations that they could share with Education, Labor, KUHP and Immigration. That would definitely increase the risk of using faked degrees here....IF they have taken it to that level (not that I imagine they were motivated enough to do so).
                  I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    These questions and conversation on English Teachers versus Teachers is always popping up. I think what needs to be clarifies is the differences as the laws are applied differently to what your clarification of an English Teacher is.

                    In educational institutional speak an English teacher is usually a teacher of English to/for First language speakers (the English language taught in Elementary/Primary or Secondary schools around the world). These teachers require a Degree in Education/ Teaching and Learning/Teaching/sometimes Art (or whatever it may be called in most Western Universities). If they are Secondary English teachers they will have a major in English. They will then also have a one year Teaching qualification (Celta etc does not qualify).

                    Teachers of English for Second Language Speakers are a different category and are now coming under much stricter conditions. These are people who have historically been able to teach ESL/EFL on any degree with a CELTA etc as long as they came from one of the 5 approved countries. This is now all changing and becoming a lot more difficult as DIKNAS are not really clear on qualifications that can be obtained in the west. A Degree in English?? I have never heard of one. An Arts Degree with English as a major,yes, an Education Degree with English as a major, yes. I know of qualified teachers who have been rejected from a KITAS in a language mill because she did not have an English Degree. She has a Degree in Education Primary teaching (a fully qualified teacher who would qualify in any International school in Indonesia).

                    Ok................... these 2 different "English" teachers have different requirements. English Language teacher (Qualified teacher) secondary can have a Degree in Education with an English major no CELTA etc required. English as a Second Language Teacher (ESL/ELF) Degree in English and Celta etc, the problem with this is the variance of what an English Degree actually is.

                    i am not sure if this is any clearer but it would help if posters qualified what type of English Teacher they are talking about.

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                    • #25
                      For example, I know of a person who taught here for 5 years, and was rejected for her new KITAS. The agent told her that she could probably get a KITAS and work in Bali instead. The most disturbing part of her situation is that the sticking point appears to be that the Immigration office is applying the 5-yr experience RETROACTIVELY. In other words, they are rejecting her because she did not have 5 years of experience before she started teaching here in 2007.


                      Hi guru1980,

                      In reference to the above, you might find that your friend could not get her KITAS renewed after 5 years because of the 5 year rule around the transfer of knowledge clause. Foreign experts are only meant to hold KITAS in the same job/same company for a maximum of 5 years because of the transfer of knowledge required by DIKNAS or Immigration or Manpower (can not remember which department). All foreign experts (FE) have an Indonesian national attached to their work permit. The FE should within 5 years be able to transfer (train) enough knowledge to the Indonesian staff member that they will no longer be needed in that position. It has become a lot more common in Education for this condition to be enforced. I know of a few teachers who have not had KITAS extended after 5 years. If they move on to another school then it all starts again and they can teacher for another 5 years.

                      The experience condition in our experience is only 3 years.

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                      • #26
                        The USA is well known as a place for the fast "Life Skills" degrees, they even have got US grants and loans for students as well as 68% of the loans never paid back, Singapore has a big list of the schools so don't try to use a degree there! Considering how many schools offer ESL certs I would say its money so accepting these certs is worth it for someone somewhere.

                        As for teachers and "teachers"... we we are coming to a new fork in the road I would say, with some schools now applying the age old profit ways of Ford and McDonald's, franchise system with Assembly Line style teaching. The modern teacher will only need to come to class and follow whats on the screen and he will have done his job.

                        [COLOR=#ff0000][FONT=book antiqua]Menanti seribu burung di udara, satu di tangan dilepaskan.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Donkk View Post
                          As for teachers and "teachers"... we we are coming to a new fork in the road I would say, with some schools now applying the age old profit ways of Ford and McDonald's, franchise system with Assembly Line style teaching. The modern teacher will only need to come to class and follow whats on the screen and he will have done his job.
                          Those above mentioned school aren't what I would class as a real school.I take it a student-centred approach isn't heard of in those schools I take it? The teachers also aren't what I would classify as a real teacher either. No self-respecting trained teacher (I mean properly trained not just a month TEFL course) would want to work in a school like you described here and on another thread.

                          Very different from the schools I've worked in. You are expected to plan and for a good reason as children aren't robots and are all very different. One size fits all will never work in a school especially if you actually want children to learn rather than just be taught to regurgitate things for the test.
                          Last edited by travellingchez; 27-08-12, 13:26. Reason: missing d
                          The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.

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                          • #28
                            You sound like a teacher not a businessman; one takes, the other gives; like love and jealousy, they just don't work well together. Like fast food if you can market it people will buy into it until someone teaches them differently.

                            [COLOR=#ff0000][FONT=book antiqua]Menanti seribu burung di udara, satu di tangan dilepaskan.
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                            • #29
                              I'm going to agree with TC on this. I don't have any desire to be involved with a school that is a "franchise system with Assembly Line style teaching" and, when given the chance to speak at seminars, I actively promote the opposite.

                              Sure, I'm not a "trained" teacher in the sense that TC means, but I'm no dummy either. I know the difference between good education and bad education - anything run for profit by a businessperson with no real background in education is suspect, and when it's one-size-fits-all with no respect for individual needs and differences, you might as well just walk away. We're people, not automatons. I'm sure there are some businesspeople out there that would be happy if we behaved like the Borg (all for the collective) for them, but....*shudder* I can just imagine the damage done to the psyches of each child.

                              Namaste, Peace & Love,
                              Glenn
                              I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

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                              • #30
                                Borg.. hum... maybe i could open a school called The Borg School... ha ha ha.. but i would say most people have never hard of that and would think its a cool name. When I first arrived in Indonesia I was lucky to work for what was a very good course with many very good teachers who worked hard to give the school and the new teachers something that could not be found in schools of this type; as time went by they re-forced on franchising, they have many branches now still make money for the owner and have lees of a need for the 5 floor building that was once full of students.

                                That was sad to see for all the teachers, but I learned a lot from it, it was not the first time i have seen this type of chose from management and not only in education.

                                Sad part is it make my life harder... are we on the road to talking about the 1%, that's to much time to stop talking.
                                Last edited by Donkk; 01-06-12, 09:03.

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