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Debunking the Palestine Lie

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  • #76
    Originally posted by bad_azz View Post
    I'd have more respect for the article if it actually stated what it is that Hamas have rejected... I did a bit of digging and it seems they have their reasons.

    Seems its a similar chestnut to a previous agreement that failed.

    Must be my training as a historian lol- I don't take news articles at face value- I wanna know what's behind them, what bias they have, what sources they have etc...
    Sounds like a confused mess:

    "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia]The Israeli army said it agreed to cease fire at 9am but Hamas said it was not party to any agreement and continued to fire rockets at Israel.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia]Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas official, said the Egyptian government had not consulted it about a ceasefire. He waved a piece of photocopied paper. “This has been our source of information – the media. No one has told us anything about it. We have not seen a draft of theEgyptian proposal,” he said. “This so-called plan was drawn up by others without consulting Hamas. It is something organised by the Egyptians and the Israelis. Is it a trap? Yes I think it is.”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-9607636.html

    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
      ... Israel clearly feels that the events of the Holocaust give it the right to act as bully while still crying "victim!" in perpetuity. Israel lost the moral high ground on this a long, long time ago. They may claim "self-defense", but look at their actions in the past week. Last count that I know, 32 Palestinian children dead ... that's just the CHILDREN. Call that "defensive"? I see it as rather "offensive", myself.

      I have been watching a lot about the situation there these last months , in the TV , and also was aware of it since I went to Israel once (for 2 weeks work) more than 20 years ago , but still have a lot to learn about .

      So considering my knowledge about it now , what you wrote above is exactly how I also feel about it .
      Last edited by marcus; 16-07-14, 13:08.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by bad_azz View Post
        I'd have more respect for the article if it actually stated what it is that Hamas have rejected... I did a bit of digging and it seems they have their reasons.

        Seems its a similar chestnut to a previous agreement that failed.

        Must be my training as a historian lol- I don't take news articles at face value- I wanna know what's behind them, what bias they have, what sources they have etc...
        The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.

        -Thomas Jefferson

        The media is portraying the Palestinians as the "good guy victims" who are only fighting for their homeland against the evil invaders. Do you believe everything you read in the newspapers? Do some digging into the history of that area and a entirely different picture is revealed.

        The British were formally awarded the mandate to govern the region in 1922. The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted in 1920, 1929 and 1936. In 1947, following World War II and The Holocaust, the British Government announced its desire to terminate the Mandate, and the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending partition into an Arab state, a Jewish state and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal, but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it; a civil war began immediately, and the establishment of the State of Israel was declared in 1948.
        Keep in mind that that was recognition for Palestine which was lacking during the Ottoman Empire.

        People like to read sensational headlines which evoke an emotional response, and the media knows this. I'm not saying all the news is bullshit but definitely there's a well used cow paddock nearby.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
          Israel clearly feels that the events of the Holocaust give it the right to act as bully while still crying "victim!" in perpetuity. Israel lost the moral high ground on this a long, long time ago. They may claim "self-defense", but look at their actions in the past week. Last count that I know, 32 Palestinian children dead ... that's just the CHILDREN. Call that "defensive"? I see it as rather "offensive", myself.
          Someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed, or makes a Youtube video and the Muslim world erupts in riots with people killed with reverberations still ringing today.



          Millions of Jews were killed, millions lost their families, friends, homes and livelihood with many survivors still alive today. If the Muslim world can go ape shit over a cartoon I would say give these people who lost everything a little leeway. You don't see Jewish riots and killing over the Holocaust deniers do you?

          Shoe on the other foot, if the Muslim world goes berserk over a cartoon, imagine if it was Muslims not Jews which the NAZIs tried to eliminate!

          Seriously, a lot of Muslims need to put on a Cat Steven's record, have a nice cup of tea and chill out.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Interloper View Post
            Further update to show how ridiculous this little cartoon is:

            Israel warns 100,000 Gazans to flee – live updates

            • Israel warns 100,000 Gazans to leave their homes
            • The home of a Hamas leader targeted
            • Deathtoll of Palestinians increases to more than 200
            • First Israeli killed after a week of violence


            Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-live-updates
            "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

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            • #81
              Originally posted by tihzho View Post
              Someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed, or makes a Youtube video and the Muslim world erupts in riots with people killed with reverberations still ringing today.



              Millions of Jews were killed, millions lost their families, friends, homes and livelihood with many survivors still alive today. If the Muslim world can go ape shit over a cartoon I would say give these people who lost everything a little leeway. You don't see Jewish riots and killing over the Holocaust deniers do you?

              Shoe on the other foot, if the Muslim world goes berserk over a cartoon, imagine if it was Muslims not Jews which the NAZIs tried to eliminate!

              Seriously, a lot of Muslims need to put on a Cat Steven's record, have a nice cup of tea and chill out.
              This I can agree with. I peronally think the all-knowing all-seeing omni -present God of everything is quite probably non-denominational and above name calling. With this in mind while we should expect others to be respectful of differing beliefs and religions, I think we should also expect people to have a sense of perspective. Murdering someone over a cartoon lacks a sense of perspective, at least in my mind.
              "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

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              • #82
                I felt more pity for the people located in Gaza before 2006. Then they democratically elected a terrorist organization. This put their society out of place with not only Israel, but many countries even some of their neighbors and allies.

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                • #83
                  Originally Posted by jukung11
                  I felt more pity for the people located in Gaza before 2006. Then they democratically elected a terrorist organization. This put their society out of place with not only Israel, but many countries even some of their neighbors and allies.

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?
                  François-Marie Arouet (Voltaire)

                  A true democracy will often produce a result that others may disapprove of. However, it is the peoples choice to make, and not another people's right to overturn this decision.

                  This is what we are supposed to be fighting to protect in this alleged world war on "Terrorism," isn't it?
                  We reap what we sow. Perhaps Israel needs to tend its garden with a little more care.

                  Let's not forget that to the British, the founding fathers were also a terrorist/revolutionary mob with a price on their head. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It is all a question of perspective.
                  Last edited by Mr Fizzywig; 17-07-14, 00:52.
                  "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

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                  • #84
                    I guess I have a different perspective.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beersheba_bus_bombings
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Bali_bombings

                    [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]No, the war on "terrorism" isn't about protecting democracy, it is about stopping people from deliberately murdering others.

                    We reap what we sow? What did Indonesia sow to reap the terrorist attacks?[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                    • #85
                      At what point does this just seem plain stupid?

                      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...re-9607636.htm
                      Israeli government sources said the first step would be “surgical” incursions into Gaza and then an operation to divide the Strip into three to prevent movement between the areas. Officials said Hamas had fired about 1,000 missiles but 90 per cent of them were intercepted by Israel’s missile-defence system, Iron Dome.
                      By firing 1000 rockets they are giving the Israelis legal justification to demolish their territory without being able to do almost anything back. It is like showing up to a gunfight with a knife.

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                      • #86
                        [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]No, the war on "terrorism" isn't about protecting democracy, it is about stopping people from deliberately murdering others.

                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        So, the 200 people who died in Israeli bomb attacks were blown up to save them from their terrorist government? That's including the 4 children that were just slaughtered?

                        You fail to understand that it is simply a matter of perspective. If you asked some wee fella in Gaza whether he was feeling terror when Israel rockets were slaughtering his neighbours and blowing in his windows I rather feel he would answer in the affirmative. [/FONT][/COLOR]This rather than the Israel swimmers who were pictured smiling and laughing as they ran off the beach in Tel Aviv when Hammas started throwing their stones at the Iron Dome.

                        Terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims. From one side of the arguement, it could be said that this is what Israel is doing to the people of Gaza. 3 Israel teenagers were killed, a barbarous act which should be punished in a court of law. I think dropping 400 tons of ordinance on Gaza as a punishment, is to put it mildly, something of an overreaction, as well as an action which is morally repugnant. Can you imagine Germany dropping 400 tons of bombs on France for such a reason and getting away with it unpunished by the international community?

                        The simple fact is that elements of the palestinian reaction to their treatment by Israel, have resorted, inadvisedly, to the attempted use of violence, but what other options do they really have? They have no voice, no representation, no court of human rights willing to hear their complaints. Their frustration is easy to understand. But the small minorities violence, even though tiny compared to the catastrophe raining down on their heads from Israel , cannot be condoned by any reasonable man. But the same reasonable man can sympathise with their position in the face of an enemy that seems to be hell bent on eradicating them from their homeland. Hammas, however ineffectually, are the only group who are currently trying to respond to the terrible treatment people from Gaza face on a daily basis. I don't support it, but I can sympathise with their plight.

                        As for our fight on world terrorism being to save people from being murdered by others... I rather think that bird flew out the window when America unilaterally and without the support of the United nations, invaded a sovereign nation who in fact turned out not to have weapons of mass destruction, which was the thin tissue of an excuse used to charge in, create political turmoil, destroy the economy and set a nation back 40 years in development, and leave it wide open to take over by extreme maniacs. And before we compare Saddam Hussein to satan, lets remember America was happy enough to bankroll him and turn a blind eye to his cynical murders and tortures when he was helping American interests by fighting the greater threat of Iran. It was only when he threatend oil supplies that America spat out the dummy and called time on him.
                        Last edited by Mr Fizzywig; 17-07-14, 03:32.
                        "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Let's put this even more simply:

                          The people of Palestine have a right to exist and go about their daily businees without molestation.
                          The people of Israel have a right to exist and go about their daily businees without molestation.

                          Palestinian affiliated freedom fighters (aka terrorists) need to put down their arms and come to the negotiating table
                          Israel needs to stop banging the big stick and being the local bully and come to the negotiating table

                          They both need to understand the need for the violence to end for the sake of their people and their way of life and negotiate fairly and honestly without preconditions and demands concerning matters outwith the scope of the dialogue..

                          But this won't happen. Israel fancies its chancies at ultimately taking over the entire area and reducing the palestinian people to a sub nation of cleaners, maids, taxi drivers and cheap factory workers. It needs the space to expand into, and it does have genuine security concerns in the area. It knows that other than nuking the Whitehouse, America and therefore the rest of the International community, will let them do pretty much whatever they want, and cover it in a thin vineer of "reasonable response to aggression."

                          Until Israel understands that in many Palestinian eyes, they are wearing jackboots, they won't soften their approach.
                          As for the Palestinians, I see no good outcome for them.
                          "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by jukung11 View Post
                            [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]No, the war on "terrorism" isn't about protecting democracy, it is about stopping people from deliberately murdering others.

                            [/FONT][/COLOR]

                            I think a good part of it is about lining some people's wallets too, which those people seem to consider the most noble ideal of all. But you could ask Dick Cheney, H.W. and W. Bush, Halliburton, etc, I'm sure they know more about it than I do. Then again, they'll probably start singing verses from well-known Katy Perry songs. Those guys have no concept of "shame", though they are adept in both "blame" and also "bait and switch".
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                            The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jukung11 View Post
                              I felt more pity for the people located in Gaza before 2006. Then they democratically elected a terrorist organization. This put their society out of place with not only Israel, but many countries even some of their neighbors and allies.
                              Hamas is able to exist in Gaza because of the deplorable conditions of Gaza. Egypt would not take Gaza, but Egypt was a state paid-off to be Israel's sole Arab ally in the region for decades. You have to accept that Gaza is the world's largest open air prison, and also to reject hasbara crap about how "good they have it." It's a terrible place to exist (I would not use the word "live" in reference to Gaza). What do the Gazans believe they have to lose? They know and accept that the Jews will never make them equal partners in the land. Why should they kowtow? Why should they play along, and align themselves with the interests of colonists who ultimately seek their removal?

                              Gaza is essentially controlled by Israel. It controls access to the region, along with its "ally," and Israel is the source of all of Gaza's resources. Curiously, hasbara propaganda turns this narrative on its head to say "look how nice we are providing all of these resources to Gaza!" As a client state, Hamastan (read: Gaza) is utterly dependent on Israel because Israel wants it that way. It wants to have total control over what goes on there, and Hamas is the weak expression of how powerless Gazans really are. Hamas exists at Israel's pleasure, not the other way around.

                              What Israel must do is simple: be what they claim to be. Want to be a Little America? Great, stop acting like a Little Jim Crow America. Make Arab Israelis an equal partner in the land first, then Israel can slowly work toward peace with the locals in the Palestinian territories.

                              It is very easy for you, someone who grew up elsewhere and most likely a developed economy, to tut tut them for electing terrorists. I submit to you, what would you have them do? Would you tell them to embrace the methods of non-violence? To have an MLK Jr party? Such things have been tried on both sides, and they do not work. The locals are fed up, and they are regularly exposed to propaganda on either side of the equation. It is not a surprise that Gazans elected Hamas nor that Israelis went in the direction of Likud. (and before you say false equivalence, know that I consider the atrocities of states with "collateral damage" to be no different from asymmetrical warfare. "legitimacy" is a masquerade.)

                              Both sides must accept that each has an equal right to work that land, to be its "local people." The Palestinians have no power. Even if they did accept such a proposition, how could they enact it? It is the Israelis who have the power, and it is the Israelis who must LEGITIMATELY work to erase Israel's colonial attributes.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by jukung11 View Post
                                By firing 1000 rockets they are giving the Israelis legal justification to demolish their territory without being able to do almost anything back. It is like showing up to a gunfight with a knife.
                                Hamas is an expression of impotent rage, jukung. With Gaza as a client state, Gazans feel as if they have no power. Here comes Hamas, "Zeal," who speak boldly and offer resistance. They are foolish in their execution of their plans, no doubt, but Hamas has been wildly successful at capturing the imagination of Palestinians who feel disenfranchised (which is probably all of them).

                                Gaza is Israel's client state, which means that Israel really must exercise restraint. To say that it is Hamas in control of Gaza is absurd. Hamas has limited ability to do much of anything in that territory. It has an obligation to its people, its satrap, and the world really must hold them accountable for it.

                                TL;DR if they don't like the fact that the locals are hostile they shouldn't have resurrected an ancient state without regard to the geopolitical and demographic realities of the 20th century. It's like pondering why the American Indians fought back. If someone is seeking to replace you, how do you react?

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