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Debunking the Palestine Lie

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  • #61
    It's actually good to note that Jews are no longer particularly endogamous, they are intermarrying at a fevered pace everywhere but Israel. I would imagine intermarriage would be OK if it were LEGAL in Israel, but again... Jim Crow.

    Judaism certainly underwent a period of endogamy in the Middle Ages all the way through to the Industrial Era. However, conversions (most notably Edom) were common in antiquity, and the Bible itself (a document you are summoning to make your case? ha!) speaks to this. When the Bible speaks of Herod, what is he? He is indeed Jewish, he's also a "foreigner." "Herod the Idumean." We are told that all of Edom was FORCIBLY converted to Judaism, something most people would find unbelievable with modern Judaism. Even religions change and adapt, and Judaism is no exception. All of this speaks to a very different view of "who is a Jew?" in ancient times. Romans and Greeks converted to it, the faith was a popular cult in their empires. Everybody knows about African conversions to Judaism in ancient times as well. There is, to a lesser degree, the possibility of Turkic conversion to Judaism in the Middle Ages with Khazar Khanagate (we don't know the degree to which the Khazars converted), not to mention all of the intermarriage that happened along the way.

    Judaism is not "ethnically pure," never has been. To say it is a "people" is dubious.

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    • #62
      An example of Israel's marriage laws and how halakhic (and theocratic) Israel can be.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3429764.html

      One thing I'd like you and others to note are the "big fur hats" worn by Orthodox Jews in that picture. Are they actually "orthodox?" Do they actually have traditions in line with ancient Jews? No, don't be ridiculous. They didn't wear any of that get up. They're radically different. "Orthodox" Judaism as practiced by Hasidim is pretty damn new (though not all Orthodox Jews are Hasidic). Again, people assume that these traditions and beliefs are all in line with their belief as to who their ancestors were and what they did. It's preposterous.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
        Oh i believe you, since i've studied (not much but quite enough) HT and their root, actually HT Amir is one of the 1st "extreme" Sunni Imam i found disapproval of ISIS Caliphate-hood...
        back to my previous statement... anyway since we dont seem to see any serious movement from any major military power to surpress them while on their side is either they make all the people under their territory to be "bai'at" or killed... well lets just say i doubt they would die on their own, Suriah and Iraq is in chaos and if somehow they could takeover those 2 area while "most eyes of the world" concetrated to Gaza, who knows what could they do next, right?...
        hmm and i also wondered about your previous statement of "no state solution"... so how in the world you think the war could be ended then?... dont tell me it wont just because all scripture said so...
        By "no state solution" I suggest that everyone stay out of it. We waste an incredible amount of time on an intractable problem. There probably can never be peace between the two parties. I am not particularly interested in waiting for them to pull their heads out of their asses on this issue. Don't hold your breath.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
          If Jesus was Jewish then Jews for Jesus must be Jewish. Since no Jew accepts Jews for Jesus as Jewish, Jesus ergo is ... not Jewish.

          I would argue that Jesus founded a new religion, and that Jewish is NOT an ethnic identity. It is not an ethnic identity because there were mass conversions (and forced conversions) in antiquity. The endogamous Judaism of today is NOT the Judaism of the ancient world. It could certainly be argued that Jesus was a Hebrew, but a Jew? As depicted in the New Testament? EHHHHHHHHH. Verdict: founded a new religion.



          He did? [SIZE=3]Do you REALLY believe that? Do you also believe the rest of the Biblical narrative that contradicts history?[/SIZE] We do know that sites like Yerushalim (Jerusalem) predate the "Judaization" of the land. We can indeed confirm that they are foreigners. That's sort of the history of the whole world. I don't hold that against them, I just ask them (and you) to accept that means that "ownership" of a region is extremely fluid. It's like asking if the English are the native people of England. They may, in part, have some native connection to the land, but their language and most of their genetics is not indigenous. This is true pretty much everywhere we look in the world.

          Again, I don't fault the "Jews," (I separate them into their actual ethnic identities like Ashkenazi, Sephardi) for this. However, there was a diaspora created in antiquity. To claim that you are exactly the same people as an ancient people is hugely misguided. If that were true, they'd have maintained Hebrew as their language (they did not, btw, as modern Hebrew is ... modern. They spoke Yiddish and Ladino.), if they'd have ended the diaspora, if they'd have always practiced endogamy, if they'd have maintained their priestly caste, if they'd have maintained their monarchy and on and on and on... They are radically different from the population that conquered the region in antiquity. To say that they've "always been there" is misleading. They were made Hellenic at one point, Babylonian at another. They were made culturally NOT Hebrews at all (or Idumeans or Samaritans etc etc, as the ethnicities of the ancient world).

          Look, there's all sorts of polities we could recreate just because "we had a kingdom there once!" As I demonstrated, that's insane. It's fun to think about our ancestors, but we need to accept that we are not clones to them and perhaps not even inheritors to their legacy. We may not even share their genes, even if we think we do. We are modern people, and we are radically different from those people. What Israelis and Palestinians and pretty much everyone alive today needs to consider is this: nationalist historical narratives are propaganda. They espouse a belief that "we as a people have always lived here in this way." That is ahistorical. Ancient people did not view themselves as this way, and they particularly did not view themselves as nations.

          So who cares if Moses, a figure you believe to be a fiction, led the Hebrews into Canaan? That was then, this is now. Right now, there is a population of Israelis, a new nation, and most were born there. They have an Israeli identity, and that's fine. I'm not asking that they leave. It's not as if they can "go back to Poland," as they know nothing of whichever mother country their recent ancestors came from. What I do ask is that they accept that the Palestinians and their Palestinian identity are just as "real" as theirs is. It exists because people believe it does, essentially. And both parties have a right to live there by virtue of birth and connection. I am not some "Israel hater." I don't mind Israelis. I just get a hair up my ass when people claim that Israel is the fulfillment of 2,000 years of exile for a "united" (lol) Jewish "people."
          Nicely side stepped Dan, you should teach dancing. It must be those "Other Muslims" who believe that.

          ...[SIZE=5][SIZE=3]Moses is also very important in Islam for having been given the revelation of the Torah, which is considered to be one of the true revealed scriptures in Muslim theology, and Muslims generally hold that much of the Torah is confirmed and repeated in the Qur'an[/SIZE].[/SIZE] Moreover, according to Islamic tradition, Moses was one of the many prophets Muhammad met in the event of the Mi'raj, when he ascended through the seven heavens.



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          • #65
            Originally posted by tihzho View Post
            Nicely side stepped Dan, you should teach dancing. It must be those "Other Muslims" who believe that.

            ?

            What does my religious affiliation have to do with this discussion on Israel and the Palestinian question? Would you like me to state the obvious? I am a Muslim. I accept that Moses (aleyhi salaam) was a valid prophet, sent to the Jews, as Messengers were sent to all peoples. Did Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) grant them land in perpetuity? No. I have seen Jews argue such a thing before, but it has no basis in Muslim scripture.

            Remember that we don't have the Torah, Psalms and Gospels as full canon. They are not a valid source of Islamic information. Nor are they a valid source of HISTORICAL information, which is why YOU absolutely cannot summon up such an argument. You're not a believer, why are you all trying to suggest that there's some kind of Biblical connection to the land?

            I drew solely from objective history, where's your argument coming from? The Bible? Baby, I don't even cite the Qur'an as a valid historical document. It's a religious document. It can give us hints, but it is not a valid source of facts for dealing with history. We can suggest that these prophets were real or "semi-mythic" (the exploits of many being condensed into one figure), but we cannot use this as primary evidence. I mean, honestly, when did you suddenly become a cheerleader for Abrahamic religion? Since never.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
              By "no state solution" I suggest that everyone stay out of it. We waste an incredible amount of time on an intractable problem. There probably can never be peace between the two parties. I am not particularly interested in waiting for them to pull their heads out of their asses on this issue. Don't hold your breath.
              wow... a great answer, on which i wont debate this one... since i still believe in "2 state solution" i'm gonna put your answer as my 2nd priority if ever going to be elected as president of something ...
              10 step to eternity...

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              • #67
                Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                Remember that we don't have the Torah, Psalms and Gospels as full canon. They are not a valid source of Islamic information. Nor are they a valid source of HISTORICAL information, which is why YOU absolutely cannot summon up such an argument. You're not a believer, why are you all trying to suggest that there's some kind of Biblical connection to the land?.
                I haven't, I don't, I won't. Could care less what a couple books written of hearsay have to say.
                this conflict seems to have been going on a long long time. Pretty much every idea has been tossed out there to settle it. So far, still happening. Used to be a matter of normal war. Who has the biggest manhood? Well, they have been fencing members for so long sores appeared and they festered. Disease is spreading. Others should have stayed away many many years ago. Let them fight. Let them lob rockets back and forth until the last man or woman standing. Everyone else, stay out. There won't be much left to try and come in and claim any way. Maybe every country sign a pack that they will allow in no one from that area until it's settled. No more Jews to the US. No more Palestinians to any other part of the Middle East. Stay and get it decided. No more outside aid. No News coverage. No support. Isolation like a bandage over an infection. Get it decided. Eventually it will get back to only having small objects to throw back and forth at each other. Maybe then they will see how silly it is. Then again, it did start with throwing stones back and forth at each other so, maybe there will never be an end. Neither side knows what just being nice is.
                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                • #68
                  In my opinion, the walls are the problem...
                  Maybe we need to tell them to break the wall and let the "unification" or brawls begins till one give up
                  That is another option besides the TNI way , "bina" or "binasakan". Or Corleone wayss, "kill all the dragons inside the ring"
                  "The Beauty of Indonesia is located outside Jakarta"

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                    I haven't, I don't, I won't. Could care less what a couple books written of hearsay have to say.
                    Oh, c'mon. Would you, could you, in a box? Could you, would you, with a fox?

                    Two state solution, you say? Give an equal chance to play? Try it, try it, and you may see, it will work for you, and for me!
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                    • #70
                      For Israel and her apologists, it always comes back to "we have the right to defend ourselves". Of course, she has the right to defend herself, but when she provokes the fight and then claims self-defense, over and over again, it wears a little thin.

                      No, I don't hate Jews nor even the state of Israel. Does Israel have a right to exist? Sure, as much as any other state. Yes, they are the recent descendants of people who were victimized and brutalized on an almost unimaginable scale and degree, because of the rise to power of a psychotic and the willingness of many, many people to "accept and tolerate" fascism and look the other way. That doesn't change or mitigate the fact that the state of Israel has become what it should despise most, a bully and tyrant to another people. I know that there are many Israelis of good heart and clear moral vision, who despise and are ashamed of what their own government and fellow Jews are doing right now. They, the ones willing to speak out, are the brave ones.The majority in their government and people, though, are jsut plain wrong.

                      Israel clearly feels that the events of the Holocaust give it the right to act as bully while still crying "victim!" in perpetuity. Israel lost the moral high ground on this a long, long time ago. They may claim "self-defense", but look at their actions in the past week. Last count that I know, 32 Palestinian children dead ... that's just the CHILDREN. Call that "defensive"? I see it as rather "offensive", myself.
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                      The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                        For Israel and her apologists, it always comes back to "we have the right to defend ourselves". Of course, she has the right to defend herself, but when she provokes the fight and then claims self-defense, over and over again, it wears a little thin. No, I don't hate Jews nor even the state of Israel. Does Israel have a right to exist? Sure, as much as any other state. Yes, they are the recent descendants of people who were victimized and brutalized on an almost unimaginable scale and degree, because of the rise to power of a psychotic and the willingness of many, many people to "accept and tolerate" fascism and look the other way. That doesn't change or mitigate the fact that the state of Israel has become what it should despise most, a bully and tyrant to another people. I know that there are many Israelis of good heart and clear moral vision, who despise and are ashamed of what their own government and fellow Jews are doing right now. They, the ones willing to speak out, are the brave ones.The majority in their government and people, though, are jsut plain wrong. Israel clearly feels that the events of the Holocaust give it the right to act as bully while still crying "victim!" in perpetuity. Israel lost the moral high ground on this a long, long time ago. They may claim "self-defense", but look at their actions in the past week. Last count that I know, 32 Palestinian children dead ... that's just the CHILDREN. Call that "defensive"? I see it as rather "offensive", myself.
                        Wow i totally agree with everything you have just written - i think i need to sit down a moment (wink)

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                        • #72
                          .............
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                          The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rejects-...065724190.html
                            [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]Hamas rejects Egypt proposal for truce with Israel
                            [SIZE=3]​[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue] Hamas rejected an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel on Tuesday, moments after the Israeli Cabinet accepted the plan, throwing into disarray international efforts to end a week of fighting that has killed 192 Palestinians and exposed millions of Israelis to Hamas rocket fire.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                            [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                              http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rejects-...065724190.html
                              [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]Hamas rejects Egypt proposal for truce with Israel
                              [SIZE=3]​[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue] Hamas rejected an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel on Tuesday, moments after the Israeli Cabinet accepted the plan, throwing into disarray international efforts to end a week of fighting that has killed 192 Palestinians and exposed millions of Israelis to Hamas rocket fire.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                              if dan was here he would say "i told you" to most of us...
                              10 step to eternity...

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                              • #75
                                I'd have more respect for the article if it actually stated what it is that Hamas have rejected... I did a bit of digging and it seems they have their reasons.

                                Seems its a similar chestnut to a previous agreement that failed.

                                Must be my training as a historian lol- I don't take news articles at face value- I wanna know what's behind them, what bias they have, what sources they have etc...
                                Cicak Magnet

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