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Debunking the Palestine Lie

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  • #46
    The saddest thing in this whole situation is how the Israelis can perpetrate such crimes against the palestinians with total imunity from the rest of the world - look at the reaction of NATO and the UN during the bosnian conflict they were in there as quick as anything in the defence of human rights. When the Iraqis invaded Kuwait look at the world reaction and subsequent military force from the UK and the Americans. But when Israel send in their planes and troops to attack palestinians in the gaza strip for the umpteenth time, the silence from the rest of the world and the UN is deafening even though America provides the ordinance to the Israelis and the UK allow them to use our country as a base to transit it from. Women and children are being killed in full scale military attacks on civillian targets, the borders have been sealed to prevent escape to safety and the world acts deaf dumb and blind. Why is that ?? I am sure if the Brits had done the same thing to the Irish during the IRA conflict, or the Indonesians did the same to the Malaysians there would be world wide condemnation - why doesnt anyone speak out or better still act against these crimes against humanity ??

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
      It's interesting to look at demographic trends. To put it crudely, Arabs in Israel make more babies than Jews. If present situation continues quite soon the total number of Arabs in Israel + Occupied Territories will outnumber the total number of Jews. I think it's 50-50 at the moment, but I'd have to check. In that case, Palestinians should really root for a one state solution. 'Hey, if you cannot give us a state, give us a right to vote. I mean you cannot just occupy this land indefinitely.'

      Some smart Palestinians and smart Jews have also realized this, and obviously arrived at different conclusions on how to proceed. A lot of centrist people in Israel would quite prefer to give Palestinians their state after a few land swaps and be done with it, however at this point they still cannot overrule the fanatics who consider the entire territory as their God promised heritage. In that way Israel is kind of stuck as it cannot deal with it's own radical fringe. And getting all that land, together with people who live on it, would actually prove disastrous for Israel, and kind of beneficial for Arabs. Defeat by victory, so to speak. Win the conflict on the battlefield then loose it in the bedroom.

      This will be something to watch out for over the next decade.
      wait i thought 2 state solution would meant each of them recognize each other Independence?...
      i do notice that it is almost imposible for those 2 to live together in the same state, almost as imposible to make each side fanatics to overule their faith regarding claims on God's promise land, but without compromise from each side i don't think this war would ever end...
      if those 2 would recognize each other independence, on which that include clearing all dispute regarding each nation border, each do have an obligation to surpress each fanatics or each who cannot may face penalty from other country or worse UNSC (or one of their member) might send their army to surpress the surging fanatics, and from my view a "justice-claim" war usually end up no good to most people reside in the area...
      and also i do believe those 2 really should consider the threat of the surging power from the North East (ISIS)...
      ISIS is indeed a threat for almost every country in Mid East, the reason is because their base ideology is quite interesting for some muslim, they gave what most muslim extremist want, a Caliphate State (yes, almost all Sunni Imam had rebuke this one-sided claim) and a non-tolerant solution to take all the land that ever occupied by muslim and/or take all the land that once/currently muslim majority reside and gave it back to muslim people under a Caliphate rule, and if somehow they do achive to obtain all of Suriah and Iraq i'm pretty sure Palestine-Israel area along with Saudi's would be their next main target, things would indeed be more complicated by then...
      10 step to eternity...

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      • #48
        Originally posted by lantern View Post
        Whatever the rights and wrongs of the future Palestinian state, does anyone seriously believe that an independent Israeli state will live in peace with Palestine?
        Fixed that for you.

        I do not believe that Israel has an option when it comes to the national aspirations of the Palestinians. After all, they dreamed up a new country without regard to the consequences why shouldn't another group seek nation building?

        I am fine with Israel being a little America, a country that is beyond Jim Crow. The vast majority of Israelis were not part of the original colonists to the Levant, but young people born in Israel. It is now their identity, and a real state. It is true that the Arabs will have to accept this, but what they don't have to accept is calls to "play nice" while the Israelis threaten THEIR annihilation. Look, Netanyahu has frequently made calls to Israel's enemies being like the Amalekites. Do you know how they dealt with the Amalekites?

        THEY KILLED THEM ALL (according to the Bible, every man, woman, child and beast of burden).

        So I don't believe this one-sided narrative of Israel is seeking peace and the Palestinians (or really, Hamas) are seeking to kill all the Jews. Cooler heads can prevail, but I fear that the Israelis will push their luck. In the final analysis, they cannot keep this up forever.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
          wait i thought 2 state solution would meant each of them recognize each other Independence?...
          i do notice that it is almost imposible for those 2 to live together in the same state, almost as imposible to make each side fanatics to overule their faith regarding claims on God's promise land, but without compromise from each side i don't think this war would ever end...
          if those 2 would recognize each other independence, on which that include clearing all dispute regarding each nation border, each do have an obligation to surpress each fanatics or each who cannot may face penalty from other country or worse UNSC (or one of their member) might send their army to surpress the surging fanatics, and from my view a "justice-claim" war usually end up no good to most people reside in the area...
          and also i do believe those 2 really should consider the threat of the surging power from the North East (ISIS)...
          ISIS is indeed a threat for almost every country in Mid East, the reason is because their base ideology is quite interesting for some muslim, they gave what most muslim extremist want, a Caliphate State (yes, almost all Sunni Imam had rebuke this one-sided claim) and a non-tolerant solution to take all the land that ever occupied by muslim and/or take all the land that once/currently muslim majority reside and gave it back to muslim people under a Caliphate rule, and if somehow they do achive to obtain all of Suriah and Iraq i'm pretty sure Palestine-Israel area along with Saudi's would be their next main target, things would indeed be more complicated by then...
          The problem is intractable. I'm in favor of a "no state solution."

          ISIS is the sort of organization that will collapse under its own weight. It's like Oliver Cromwell's Protectorate, nobody actually LIKES them... they just fear them. Their methods are simply too pathological for people to get behind for the long term.

          What ISIS represents, however, the desire for khalifa, is very important to the sentiment of modern Muslims and their concept of nation building. I've told the forum before and I'll say it again, organizations like Hizb ut-Tahrir seek the same thing and are much more dangerous and insidious. ISIS, and other organizations like it, will slowly change the face of the Middle East's medieval monarchies (which are anathema to a caliphate) and its dictatorships. They may lay the foundations for future attempts, and they will certainly continue to destabilize the region.

          So too will the region be destabilized by a weak United States. Everybody knows the "Emperor" has no clothes on, that Barack Obama's presidency has been a joke. It's a whole new ball game out there, one that will see a rising tide of Islamic rebellions literally everywhere... including Indonesia.

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          • #50
            As further evidence of what I speak...



            Their rallies continue to grow. I saw them EVERYWHERE when I was in Indonesia, and that's not a common occurrence in Muslim-majority nations. They are banned in most Muslim countries, because they seek nothing short of overthrowing the government. Those people really mean it when they shout "khi-la-fah."

            For those who disbelieve me, or think this is a fringe or even a paid rally, I invite you to spend some time in masjids in major cities. Look to see who is handing out flyers at Jum'ah. Hizb ut-Tahrir is actively recruiting, and they are cut from the same cloth as ISIS. They want the same thing, but are much, much more sneaky about how they want to achieve it.

            You will see the same things in Indonesia, and soon. I guarantee it.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MasterRice
              You know what? Actually you may fuck my sister, or any of my female relative, have fun~

              If you want to argue, do it with respect, just stop the filth. Moderator pls.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by colroe View Post
                If you want to argue, do it with respect, just stop the filth. Moderator pls.
                In all fairness, it is my fault with my "free" tongue. Mea culpa.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                  Why? Because the Jews believe they have an immutable contract with God Himself for that land, that the Great Realtor in the Sky bequeaths land in perpetuity. Nevermind the political and demographic problems with recreating a state that hadn't existed in thousands of years, God said it's ours.
                  Funny how the Muslims thought and think the same thing about Allah, so they pushed (fought) the Jews out of their land...oh about 1,400 years or so ago.

                  The typical "side step jangle two step" from you and that other über Muslim is the MUSLIM Ottoman Empire didn't give a shit and think too highly of the Palestinians however the newly founded State of Israel did gave them more rights than under the MUSLIM Ottoman Empire but they slapped that hand away. But hey da Turkish Ottoman Empire, they be bros coz da be Muslim in da hood or something like that.

                  I'm sorry to say this but you and the other über Muslim guy are typical Muslim stereotypes, arrogant and Islam is never ever wrong as there are always "reasons" but not all of them valid and if not, hey its the side step jangle two step. A little advice for you über Muslims, lighten up a bit and maybe people might not hate Islam so much. However I know you and others like you don't give a shit because Allah is your bro in da hood. haha

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                  • #54
                    "Funny how the Muslims thought and think the same thing about Allah, so they pushed (fought) the Jews out of their land...oh about 1,400 years or so ago.

                    The typical "side step jangle two step" from you and that other über Muslim is the MUSLIM Ottoman Empire didn't give a shit and think too highly of the Palestinians however the newly founded State of Israel did gave them more rights than under the MUSLIM Ottoman Empire but they slapped that hand away. But hey da Turkish Ottoman Empire, they be bros coz da be Muslim in da hood or something like that.

                    I'm sorry to say this but you and the other über Muslim guy are typical Muslim stereotypes, arrogant and Islam is never ever wrong as there are always "reasons" but not all of them valid and if not, hey its the side step jangle two step. A little advice for you über Muslims, lighten up a bit and maybe people might not hate Islam so much. However I know you and others like you don't give a shit because Allah is your bro in da hood. haha"

                    ?

                    The Muslims conquered that region from the Byzantines, and allowed Jews to reside in the Levant. One of the first things Saladin did when he retook Jerusalem was allow the Jews to return.

                    Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) did indeed fight the Jews in Arabia... because the Jews sided with the polytheists. They betrayed their treaties with the Muslims, and they were defeated. The Jews were not native to Arabia, but were allowed to live there following the failure of Simon bar Kochba. They were refugees in the land. Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) married a Jewish woman, Safiyah, and some of the sahaba were indeed former Jews. He also allowed them to continue to live in Arabia when he could have expelled them (though, in fairness, Umar did expel them much later).

                    The Ottomans were an imperialist power, and they certainly did not manage the affairs of their Arab subjects well. To suggest that Israel gave them MORE rights, though, is laughable. Can you expand on this topic? I can demonstrate the many ways in which Arab Israelis, "full" citizens, are disenfranchised, not to mention the millions of Palestinian refugees.

                    I get that you watched some hasbara videos. Did you ever consider that the propaganda was... propaganda?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                      As further evidence of what I speak...



                      Their rallies continue to grow. I saw them EVERYWHERE when I was in Indonesia, and that's not a common occurrence in Muslim-majority nations. They are banned in most Muslim countries, because they seek nothing short of overthrowing the government. Those people really mean it when they shout "khi-la-fah."

                      For those who disbelieve me, or think this is a fringe or even a paid rally, I invite you to spend some time in masjids in major cities. Look to see who is handing out flyers at Jum'ah. Hizb ut-Tahrir is actively recruiting, and they are cut from the same cloth as ISIS. They want the same thing, but are much, much more sneaky about how they want to achieve it.

                      You will see the same things in Indonesia, and soon. I guarantee it.
                      Oh i believe you, since i've studied (not much but quite enough) HT and their root, actually HT Amir is one of the 1st "extreme" Sunni Imam i found disapproval of ISIS Caliphate-hood...
                      back to my previous statement... anyway since we dont seem to see any serious movement from any major military power to surpress them while on their side is either they make all the people under their territory to be "bai'at" or killed... well lets just say i doubt they would die on their own, Suriah and Iraq is in chaos and if somehow they could takeover those 2 area while "most eyes of the world" concetrated to Gaza, who knows what could they do next, right?...
                      hmm and i also wondered about your previous statement of "no state solution"... so how in the world you think the war could be ended then?... dont tell me it wont just because all scripture said so...
                      10 step to eternity...

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by tihzho
                        I'm sorry to say this but you and the other über Muslim guy are typical Muslim stereotypes, arrogant and Islam is never ever wrong as there are always "reasons" but not all of them valid and if not, hey its the side step jangle two step. A little advice for you über Muslims, lighten up a bit and maybe people might not hate Islam so much. However I know you and others like you don't give a shit because Allah is your bro in da hood. haha
                        'K. Let's go have a beer or two and forget our differences. But, how am I supposed to learn something new from talking with you, when you just keep repeating the same old shit that I've already known and heard before I ever knew you existed?
                        [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                        The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by colroe View Post
                          If you want to argue, do it with respect, just stop the filth. Moderator pls.
                          Well sorry if I was rude, I'm actually a kind person deep if you know me well

                          Originally posted by DanInAceh
                          ...
                          I hope you're not taking that as offense
                          Aloft! Me hearties! Harharhar!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                            MOD NOTE:

                            A report about inappropriate comments in this thread has been made by a member of this forum. I edited out one insulting word in this thread.

                            TO Masterice: You are relatively new in this forum and my fellow moderator Puspawarna has warned you in this thread to play nicely. But in this thread, you wrote a provocative response to tihzho. This is your second warning and next time you make the same mistake, you will not get a warning but an infraction point instead. In case you don't know, these infraction points will accumulate and when it reaches the maximum, the server will automatically ban you.

                            To anyone who are participating in this discussion, please refrain yourself from making inflammatory and provocative posts. If you think some posts are out of the line, you are highly advised to report them.
                            Thank you ^_^ in all honesty I never had a plan to stay for long time, I'll be more careful next time though.
                            Aloft! Me hearties! Harharhar!

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                            • #59
                              Dan, Jesus was not Muslim, he was Jewish and Judea which is what is now Israel was occupied by the Roman Empire.

                              The Hebrew Bible (Torah) states that the temple was constructed under Solomon, King of the United Kingdom of Israel and Judah. This would date its construction to the 10th century BCE, although it is possible that an earlier Jebusite sanctuary had stood on the site. During the kingdom of Judah, the temple was dedicated to Yahweh, and is said to have housed the Ark of the Covenant. Rabbinic sources state that the First Temple stood for 410 years and, based on the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, place construction in 832 BCE and destruction in 422 BCE (3338 AM), 165 years later than secular estimates.
                              Let's not also forget about Moses which led the Jews into the "Holy land" which goes back a few thousand years more. I believe that's mentioned in the Qu'ran, yes?

                              Moses is also very important in Islam for having been given the revelation of the Torah, which is considered to be one of the true revealed scriptures in Muslim theology, and Muslims generally hold that much of the Torah is confirmed and repeated in the Qur'an. Moreover, according to Islamic tradition, Moses was one of the many prophets Muhammad met in the event of the Mi'raj, when he ascended through the seven heavens.
                              So now is there a problem? Fehhh

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by tihzho View Post
                                Dan, Jesus was not Muslim, he was Jewish and Judea which is what is now Israel was occupied by the Roman Empire.
                                If Jesus was Jewish then Jews for Jesus must be Jewish. Since no Jew accepts Jews for Jesus as Jewish, Jesus ergo is ... not Jewish.

                                I would argue that Jesus founded a new religion, and that Jewish is NOT an ethnic identity. It is not an ethnic identity because there were mass conversions (and forced conversions) in antiquity. The endogamous Judaism of today is NOT the Judaism of the ancient world. It could certainly be argued that Jesus was a Hebrew, but a Jew? As depicted in the New Testament? EHHHHHHHHH. Verdict: founded a new religion.

                                Originally posted by tihzho View Post
                                Let's not also forget about Moses which led the Jews into the "Holy land" which goes back a few thousand years more. I believe that's mentioned in the Qu'ran, yes?

                                So now is there a problem? Fehhh
                                He did? Do you REALLY believe that? Do you also believe the rest of the Biblical narrative that contradicts history? We do know that sites like Yerushalim (Jerusalem) predate the "Judaization" of the land. We can indeed confirm that they are foreigners. That's sort of the history of the whole world. I don't hold that against them, I just ask them (and you) to accept that means that "ownership" of a region is extremely fluid. It's like asking if the English are the native people of England. They may, in part, have some native connection to the land, but their language and most of their genetics is not indigenous. This is true pretty much everywhere we look in the world.

                                Again, I don't fault the "Jews," (I separate them into their actual ethnic identities like Ashkenazi, Sephardi) for this. However, there was a diaspora created in antiquity. To claim that you are exactly the same people as an ancient people is hugely misguided. If that were true, they'd have maintained Hebrew as their language (they did not, btw, as modern Hebrew is ... modern. They spoke Yiddish and Ladino.), if they'd have ended the diaspora, if they'd have always practiced endogamy, if they'd have maintained their priestly caste, if they'd have maintained their monarchy and on and on and on... They are radically different from the population that conquered the region in antiquity. To say that they've "always been there" is misleading. They were made Hellenic at one point, Babylonian at another. They were made culturally NOT Hebrews at all (or Idumeans or Samaritans etc etc, as the ethnicities of the ancient world).

                                Look, there's all sorts of polities we could recreate just because "we had a kingdom there once!" As I demonstrated, that's insane. It's fun to think about our ancestors, but we need to accept that we are not clones to them and perhaps not even inheritors to their legacy. We may not even share their genes, even if we think we do. We are modern people, and we are radically different from those people. What Israelis and Palestinians and pretty much everyone alive today needs to consider is this: nationalist historical narratives are propaganda. They espouse a belief that "we as a people have always lived here in this way." That is ahistorical. Ancient people did not view themselves as this way, and they particularly did not view themselves as nations.

                                So who cares if Moses, a figure you believe to be a fiction, led the Hebrews into Canaan? That was then, this is now. Right now, there is a population of Israelis, a new nation, and most were born there. They have an Israeli identity, and that's fine. I'm not asking that they leave. It's not as if they can "go back to Poland," as they know nothing of whichever mother country their recent ancestors came from. What I do ask is that they accept that the Palestinians and their Palestinian identity are just as "real" as theirs is. It exists because people believe it does, essentially. And both parties have a right to live there by virtue of birth and connection. I am not some "Israel hater." I don't mind Israelis. I just get a hair up my ass when people claim that Israel is the fulfillment of 2,000 years of exile for a "united" (lol) Jewish "people."

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