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Debunking the Palestine Lie

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  • Originally posted by johntap View Post
    The way I read it was as follows.

    Hamas has gone ahead knowing that it will be an aggressor in future (tunnels) and that retaliation will surely happen, but have failed to build underground shelters for their people.
    Yeah... and I do not mention this "issue" because no matter how many different ways Hamas has failed the Palestinians, no matter how many things it may have done to make the current situation "inevitable", it makes absolutely no difference to the grounds for "moral justification" for the murders of hundreds of civilians in Gaza, including the brutal deaths of almost two hundred children, to date. THAT is my "issue', nothing more.

    I have never said anywhere, anything about my personal "support" for Hamas or their actions, strategies or policies, for a very good reason: I do not support Hamas at all. It is arguable that Hamas may be just as morally bankrupt as the government of Israel and that of the United States, but Hamas is NOT the party which is currently killing innocent men, women and children in Gaza, no matter what bullshit the Israeli government shoots out of its ass or how many times it does it.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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    • Originally posted by captpiratedog View Post
      Should be this:

      A nice "finesse",Cappy, and I think an accurate adjustment, but I see no tangible difference to the people of Gaza, and I imagine the subtle difference to be pretty well lost on them as well.

      I saw one of the victims of the bombing, an older woman whose husband, children or grandchildren had just been killed, on AJE several days ago. She was wailing away, repeating "God punish the Arab countries, God punish the Arab countries!" , over and over again. Not "punish Israel", not "death to America", her anger, anguish and evident hatred was directed solely at those who should be helping her, and justifiably so, in my opinion.
      [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

      The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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      • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post

        I saw one of the victims of the bombing, an older woman whose husband, children or grandchildren had just been killed, on AJE several days ago. She was wailing away, repeating "God punish the Arab countries, God punish the Arab countries!" , over and over again. Not "punish Israel", not "death to America", her anger, anguish and evident hatred was directed solely at those who should be helping her, and justifiably so, in my opinion.
        Is it relevant to ask why they are not helping? And what of the muslim brotherhood?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by johntap View Post
          Is it relevant to ask why they are not helping? And what of the muslim brotherhood?
          My question exactly Tappie
          The answer is 42 .... any questions? .

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          • Qatar is helping though isn't it? As is Iran (although Iran is not an Arab country, and if someone refers to an Iranian as 'Arab' they get Extremely offended.. Then they calm down and start talking about food.)

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            • Originally posted by captpiratedog View Post
              Should be this:
              Originally posted by johntap View Post
              Is it relevant to ask why they are not helping? And what of the muslim brotherhood?
              No backsliding now, John...


              I dunno, let's see... mebbe 'cos the Arab monarchies / oligarchies / autocracies find "popular movements" like Hamas and MB to be, uh.... threateningly populist and democratic... What of the Brotherhood? They ran into a buzzsaw in Egypt in the form of their "little brother" al-Sisi.
              One of the main differences this time is the absence of leadership in Egypt who will at least pretend to give a shit.

              However, as I believe I made clear-ish in # 166, such political considerations are really outside of my current "scope of interest", which is confined to a murder spree by Israel over the last three weeks and counting, aided and abetted by the USA, and given "tacit consent" by the above mentioned Arab states. I'm not really concerned at the moment about WHY they (Israel, USA, Arab states) are doing it, since none of the reasons or "justifications" for it have any resonance with me whatsoever. They are doing it "for their own selfish reasons", let's put it that way... and they are all "in the red", morally and literally speaking.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

              The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

              Comment


              • Originally posted by johntap View Post
                Is it relevant to ask why they are not helping? And what of the muslim brotherhood?
                The reason why has to do with the same reason why Egypt closes its borders to Gaza, the United States. The complex web that is the Middle East has the United States somewhat aligned with (at least in terms of resource extraction) its medieval monarchies. Egypt is the second largest recipient of foreign aid after Israel, and its aid is directly tied to... playing nice with Israel. So too can we surmise that the Arab states agree to maintain some distance. It may also be true, and perhaps this is the primary reason, that they fear the rise of more states based on Arab nationalism rather than monarchies. Regardless, their PEOPLE certainly would like to see the Palestinians aided and I suspect the monarchs do as well. Iran is clearly not interested in what Israel or the United States thinks about their actions, so they're totally willing to give funding and training to Hamas and Hizb'Allah.

                What about the Ikhwan? People speak about the Muslim Brotherhood as if they're part of a global conspiracy. The Protocols of the Elders of Saudi Arabia or something. Hamas certainly has connections to the Muslim Brotherhood, as do other forms of religious Arab nationalism. Where they differ is that Hamas has the sole goal of eliminating Israel.

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                • Originally posted by Donting101 View Post
                  Qatar is helping though isn't it? As is Iran (although Iran is not an Arab country, and if someone refers to an Iranian as 'Arab' they get Extremely offended.. Then they calm down and start talking about food.)

                  Qatar is a big supporter of MB, hence the shitty state of current relations between Qatar and Egypt. Qatar is the "decent fellow on the block" at the moment... yes, they are trying to help broker a "solution" to at least end the current siege of Gaza.
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                  The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                  • Also, I'd like to note that the countries most willing to aid the Palestinians are the Muslim democracies of Turkey and Iran (yes, Iran is technically a democracy). Turkey even has reason to not goad Israel, but the Turks are positively outraged. They're even contemplating another flotilla, this time with military escorts. The nations which will equalize this conflict will be the Muslim democracies of the region. Autocracies are easier to control, but the United States has a much more difficult (or impossible, as with Iran) time trying to influence many representatives. Even with the autocracies, the monarchs play both sides. They both fund mujahideen (and sometimes even join them), and accept American aid.

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                    • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                      Also, I'd like to note that the countries most willing to aid the Palestinians are the Muslim democracies of Turkey and Iran (yes, Iran is technically a democracy). Turkey even has reason to not goad Israel, but the Turks are positively outraged. They're even contemplating another flotilla, this time with military escorts. The nations which will equalize this conflict will be the Muslim democracies of the region.
                      THAT's what I want to see. Float a navy and literally come sailing to the rescue of Gaza. And dare Israel to "do something about it". As long as Israel is the strongest bully on the block, or at least as long as no one will stand up to her, she will do exactly as she wants, and if no one stops her here, she will be that much more emboldened (again). The actions of my own country in this are sickening, but we can still hope for Muslim friends to do the right thing.
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                      The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                      • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                        Also, I'd like to note that the countries most willing to aid the Palestinians are the Muslim democracies of Turkey and Iran (yes, Iran is technically a democracy).
                        True that, there are elected Jews, Christians and even Zoroastrians in the Iranian parliament

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                          What about the Ikhwan? People speak about the Muslim Brotherhood as if they're part of a global conspiracy. The Protocols of the Elders of Saudi Arabia or something. Hamas certainly has connections to the Muslim Brotherhood, as do other forms of religious Arab nationalism. Where they differ is that Hamas has the sole goal of eliminating Israel.
                          I had a look at http://www.ikhwanweb.com/ but it didn't help me much.

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                          • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                            However, as I believe I made clear-ish in # 166, such political considerations are really outside of my current "scope of interest", which is confined to a murder spree by Israel over the last three weeks and counting, aided and abetted by the USA, and given "tacit consent" by the above mentioned Arab states. I'm not really concerned at the moment about WHY they (Israel, USA, Arab states) are doing it, since none of the reasons or "justifications" for it have any resonance with me whatsoever. They are doing it "for their own selfish reasons", let's put it that way... and they are all "in the red", morally and literally speaking.
                            I symphatize with the sentiment expressed here, but world being what it is, such political calculations are essential to current and future situation in the region. There was an interesting article on cnn today that basically restates what was mentioned in posts above in more detail, some Arab governments are more afraid of Brotherhood than of Israel, whereas other governments support MB for their own reasons, some just as selfish and politically calculated.

                            It's a quagmire. Palestinians, being in the hopeless situation they are in, will naturally tend to more extremist governements. This in turn will alienate some of their long-term supporters, thus making their situation even more hopeless. If enough Arab states decide that Israel is the lesser of two evils, then there will not be much incentive to change the present setup. I simply don't see any realistic way out of the long-term deadlock then.

                            http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/31/wo...html?hpt=hp_c2
                            Take my advice, I don't need it.

                            Comment


                            • Very level headed comment Niko. It's well time for level-headed news

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
                                I symphatize with the sentiment expressed here, but world being what it is, such political calculations are essential to current and future situation in the region. [dll]
                                Well put and quite true, Niko. It's not that I don't understand or accept that, but we are not on CNN here. Even if we were. CNN (in the studio) is just talking heads and policy wonks and "experts" trading opinions. It's the actual reporting from the field that matters, and we are all far from the field.

                                The purpose of this thread is discussion and a venue to vent one's feelings and opinions on this, as far as I know. It certainly isn't to "come up wit a solution" to the conflict, which, once reached, we will send a transcript of this thread to... who? CNN? And they will forward it to Obama, Netanyahu, the UN Security Council, the leaders of Hamas, etc, and they will see the light, agree and immediately implement our "solution"? Sorry for being facetious or sardonic here, but no, this thread is not here for us to "solve the crisis". It's an incredibly complicated situation, and the political considerations and calculations are an inextricable part of it, obviously. If they were not, if more of the parties "involved" or with an "interest" would drop those personal and selfish interests in the service of simple morals, maybe this carnage would end.

                                It's not ending however, and as I've said, my personal interest and focus here is simply on the moral atrocities that are (in my view) occurring, the evil scenario (my view again) that is playing out, and the moral culpability of those who are doing this (siege and assault of Gaza) and those who are supporting them.
                                [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                                The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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