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Lion Air Crash in Bali

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  • redsnapr
    replied
    Originally posted by BulePilot View Post
    ....

    safety is good for business. ....

    Reminds me of the well known industry phrase "If you think safety is expensive, try an accident".

    Leave a comment:


  • BulePilot
    replied
    I have in my 5 years in Indonesia been on 3 flights on Lion Air. The first return trip swore me off them but when my friends needed to get back to work following a holiday and Lion was on the only available option I decided "well if we go, we go together".

    Nothing particularly wrong with that flight but I will NEVER fly with them again. The BNN busts and this recent accident as well as all the industry discussions only serve to bolster my view.

    The primary issue with aviation in Indonesia comes down to the effectiveness of the regulator. Garuda undertook a massive turn-around following the heinous accident of 2007. It certainly shows, they really are becoming a world-class airline but they are very much doing it on their own because they have realised safety is good for business. Citilink by the way is a unit of Garuda.

    I am fortunate enough that ticket prices don't much factor into my decision-making, safety and convenience come first and second. But travel is largely discretionary and I don't think it should require taking disproportionate risk.

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  • lantern
    replied
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]As the Lion Air plane was coming in to land, with an aircraft of national carrier Garuda following behind and another about to take off on the runway just ahead, the co-pilot lost sight of the runway as heavy rain drove across the windshield.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]The captain, an Indonesian citizen with about 15,000 hours experience and an instructor’s license, took the controls.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]Between 400 and 200 feet (122 and 61 metres), pilots described flying through a wall of water, according to the source. Bursts of heavy rainfall and lost visibility are not uncommon in the tropics but the aircraft’s low height meant the crew had little time to react.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]With no sight of the runway lights or markings, the captain decided to abort the landing and perform a “go around”, a routine manoeuvre for which all pilots are well trained.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]But the captain told officials afterwards that instead of climbing, the brand-new 737 started to sink uncontrollably.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]From 200 feet, well-practised routines unravelled quickly.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]“The captain says he intended to go around but that he felt the aircraft dragged down by the wind; that is why he hit the sea,” said the source, who was briefed on the crew’s testimony.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]“There was rain coming east to west; very heavy,” the source said, asking not to be named because no one is authorized to speak publicly about the investigation while it is under way.
    http://www.livemint.com/Politics/LEY...-from-sky.html [/FONT][/COLOR]

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  • Niko Z.
    replied
    September 2005, 141 people killed in Mandala Air accident in Medan.

    5September: Pesawat Boeing 737-200 Mandala Airlines Penerbangan RI 091 gagal take off dari Bandara Polonia Medan dalam penerbangan menuju Jakarta, lalu menerobos pagar bandara dan menabrak perumahan pendudukdan masyarakat di Jl. Jamin Ginting Medan. Dari 117 orang penumpang dan awak, hanya 17 yang selamat. Korban dari masyarakat di darat, 41orang dinyatakan tewas.
    Batavia also had a number of forced landings and near misses after 2005.

    September 1997, Garuda, 244 people killed, it was the worst airline accident in Indonesia to date.

    26 September - Garuda Indonesia Penerbangan GA152, jatuh di kawasan pegunungan dekat Medan, Indonesia; musibah pesawat terburuk dalam sejarah Indonesia; semua 222 penumpang dan 12 awak pesawat tewas.
    Garuda also had fatal accidents in January 2002 (1 dead) and March 2007 (22 dead).
    Last edited by Niko Z.; 15-04-13, 20:24.

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  • Anglian
    replied
    Im not going to speculate on the cause of this mishap, but it is very odd that the recently defunct Airline Batavia who had the oldest and worst maintained 737s never had a crash as far as I know, also Im also quite sure about Mandala before it also went bust their aircraft weren't too well maintained either, I would also like to point out that there are several foreign airlines that fly into Europe who should be grounded, but the political results would be enormous, so please dont slag off Lion Air till the full facts are know.

    Leave a comment:


  • jim69
    replied
    From Jakarta post for all the skeptics:

    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]An official said on Sunday that both the chief pilot and co-pilot of the Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft that crashed on Bali on Saturday afternoon tested negative for narcotic and alcohol use.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]The Transportation Ministry’s director general of air transportation, Herry Bakti S.Gumay, said a medical examination had found no evidence that Capt. Mahlup Gozali or co-pilot, Chirag Carla, had any health problem that would have played a role in the accident. The tests found no presence of drugs or alcohol in their bodies.

    http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...tic-tests.html[/FONT][/COLOR]

    Leave a comment:


  • wombat
    replied
    Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
    The plane had the right landing configuration. The flaps were down. I speculate that the culprit was micro burst on approach

    Leave a comment:


  • jstar
    replied
    Before anyone starts yelling again; I hope you realize the Pollycarpus reference was tongue-in-cheek...

    Leave a comment:


  • jstar
    replied
    Internet can be a dangerous tool. It's very easy, by cherry picking, to make a certain case. In Europe we have/had a similar thing going on with a low cost carrier called Ryan Air. Many fans of the 'serious' airlines posted rumors and innuendo about lack of maintenance, second rate pilots, etc. etc. It seems many out there are quite jealous of the success of some of these low cost carriers. And for me, reading an article from any news-source, is the same as; I have a brother in law who has a friend who knows a pilot... These stories all need to be verified and read with common sense. There are a huge amount of cases where news agencies just blindly copy other's stories btw (e.g. the Imam who was beaten up by the woman, search on this forum).

    I don't think Lion is particularly good. But I also don"t think they are any worse than Air Asia, CitiLink and all these others. And at least these have new planes (have you ever been in a refurbished CitiLink plane?). And yes, we will use them again, just like any of the others. Even Garuda to Perth (but not to Amsterdam, google Pollycarpus if you want to know why). And being on a 'banned list' from the EU, doesn't say that much if you don't intend to fly to the EU and won't allow inspections or control by certain geographical areas.

    The reason I included the Wiki quotes is that it was referred to by a previous poster. And instead of just providing links, I do like it when people take out the relevant bits and post them; that accommodates the readability of a thread. As you can see, there are many 'databases' out there with incident info. But for me a collision at the gate from a luggage handler with the parked plane is not so relevant. The (co) pilots of the plane in Bali passed their initial drug tests btw.

    Leave a comment:


  • jim69
    replied
    A plane less than 2 month old destroyed.

    If it was an old plane like some of the airlines are using then the reasons and speculations could become huge. But a plane so new?

    I will still use lion air, remember a good landing is one you can walk away from, OK in this case swim away, but there were no fatalities. Thats the important thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • MattyRedSox
    replied
    Originally posted by jstar View Post
    It seems mr. Pip doesn't like to find proven facts and figures but based his findings and speculations on a forum thread by some people who complained about a hard landing. Anyway, here we go on Lion incidents:
    1998: plane is shot down
    2002: accident in take-off
    20009: landing in Solo

    Garuda, which some here applaud since it does have permission to fly to the EU, has had 10 major incidents since 1967 btw. And this was an interesting one in 2007:
    March 7 – Garuda Indonesia Flight 200, a Boeing 737-400, overshoots the runway and crashes while landing at Yogyakarta, Indonesia, killing 22 of the 140 people on board.

    That was all Wiki info.

    And according to that database provided by Pip, Garuda had 45 incidents as of 1950. And Lion had 7 since 2002.

    i really don't understand where this Lion bashing is coming from. It seems some have a vested interest in mudslinging this airline. And it's always hear-say, nobody has direct experience with any of these allegations on maintenance, pilots on dope, etc.
    You seem to imply that I have a vested interest. I don't. Just google "lion air pilots drugs" you'll get 20 pages of hits... here's just one recent article. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...-drug-use.html

    If you want to fly them, do so. Airline safety is also measured in amount of miles flown, pax carried, take offs and landings vs. incidents. Garuda is greatly improved. Lion Air is pretty bad. But again, fly them if you want. I was going to say please fly them, but that could be misconstrued.... so actually, I hope that you don't fly them, but its your choice. My choice is not to. Also, please do not accuse me of hearsay. I have provided several links. You chose to ignore them, that's again your choice, but hearsay? No.
    Last edited by MattyRedSox; 15-04-13, 07:47. Reason: spelling and hearsay

    Leave a comment:


  • bad_azz
    replied
    Originally posted by jstar View Post
    It seems mr. Pip doesn't like to find proven facts and figures but based his findings and speculations on a forum thread by some people who complained about a hard landing. Anyway, here we go on Lion incidents:
    1998: plane is shot down
    2002: accident in take-off
    20009: landing in Solo

    Garuda, which some here applaud since it does have permission to fly to the EU, has had 10 major incidents since 1967 btw. And this was an interesting one in 2007:
    March 7 – Garuda Indonesia Flight 200, a Boeing 737-400, overshoots the runway and crashes while landing at Yogyakarta, Indonesia, killing 22 of the 140 people on board.

    That was all Wiki info.

    And according to that database provided by Pip, Garuda had 45 incidents as of 1950. And Lion had 7 since 2002.

    i really don't understand where this Lion bashing is coming from. It seems some have a vested interest in mudslinging this airline. And it's always hear-say, nobody has direct experience with any of these allegations on maintenance, pilots on dope, etc.

    Hardly an acceptable source for "facts and figures"... try quoting wiki as a reference in a university paper and see how far your marks go.

    Leave a comment:


  • pip
    replied
    [QUOTE=jstar;327176]No, that's why I made the edit...
    Did you read that?[/QUOTE

    Thank you for editing your errors much appreciated

    Leave a comment:


  • jstar
    replied
    No, that's why I made the edit...
    Did you read that?

    Leave a comment:


  • pip
    replied
    Originally posted by jstar View Post
    It seems mr. Pip doesn't like to find proven facts and figures but based his findings and speculations on a forum thread by some people who complained about a hard landing. Anyway, here we go on Lion incidents:
    1998: plane is shot down
    2002: accident in take-off
    2094: landing in Solo

    Garuda, which some here applaud since it does have permission to fly to the EU, has had 10 major incidents since 1967 btw. And this was the last in 2007:
    March 7 – Garuda Indonesia Flight 200, a Boeing 737-400, overshoots the runway and crashes while landing at Yogyakarta, Indonesia, killing 22 of the 140 people on board.

    i really don't understand where this Lion bashing is coming from. It seems some have a vested interest in mudslinging this airline. And it's always hear-say, nobody has direct experience with any of these allegations on maintenance, pilots on dope, etc.
    Did you read the below before you posted?


    http://aviation-safety.net/database/...e.php?var=5758

    Leave a comment:

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