Lion Air Crash in Bali

[jstar]

Internet can be a dangerous tool. It's very easy, by cherry picking, to make a certain case. In Europe we have/had a similar thing going on with a low cost carrier called Ryan Air. Many fans of the 'serious' airlines posted rumors and innuendo about lack of maintenance, second rate pilots, etc. etc. It seems many out there are quite jealous of the success of some of these low cost carriers. And for me, reading an article from any news-source, is the same as; I have a brother in law who has a friend who knows a pilot... These stories all need to be verified and read with common sense. There are a huge amount of cases where news agencies just blindly copy other's stories btw (e.g. the Imam who was beaten up by the woman, search on this forum).

I don't think Lion is particularly good. But I also don"t think they are any worse than Air Asia, CitiLink and all these others. And at least these have new planes (have you ever been in a refurbished CitiLink plane?). And yes, we will use them again, just like any of the others. Even Garuda to Perth (but not to Amsterdam, google Pollycarpus if you want to know why). And being on a 'banned list' from the EU, doesn't say that much if you don't intend to fly to the EU and won't allow inspections or control by certain geographical areas.

The reason I included the Wiki quotes is that it was referred to by a previous poster. And instead of just providing links, I do like it when people take out the relevant bits and post them; that accommodates the readability of a thread. As you can see, there are many 'databases' out there with incident info. But for me a collision at the gate from a luggage handler with the parked plane is not so relevant. The (co) pilots of the plane in Bali passed their initial drug tests btw.

[jstar]

Before anyone starts yelling again; I hope you realize the Pollycarpus reference was tongue-in-cheek...

[wombat]

The plane had the right landing configuration. The flaps were down. I speculate that the culprit was micro burst on approach

[jim69]

From Jakarta post for all the skeptics:

[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]An official said on Sunday that both the chief pilot and co-pilot of the Lion Air Boeing 737-800 aircraft that crashed on Bali on Saturday afternoon tested negative for narcotic and alcohol use.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]The Transportation Ministry’s director general of air transportation, Herry Bakti S.Gumay, said a medical examination had found no evidence that Capt. Mahlup Gozali or co-pilot, Chirag Carla, had any health problem that would have played a role in the accident. The tests found no presence of drugs or alcohol in their bodies.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...tic-tests.html[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Anglian]

Im not going to speculate on the cause of this mishap, but it is very odd that the recently defunct Airline Batavia who had the oldest and worst maintained 737s never had a crash as far as I know, also Im also quite sure about Mandala before it also went bust their aircraft weren't too well maintained either, I would also like to point out that there are several foreign airlines that fly into Europe who should be grounded, but the political results would be enormous, so please dont slag off Lion Air till the full facts are know.

[Niko Z.]

September 2005, 141 people killed in Mandala Air accident in Medan.

5September: Pesawat Boeing 737-200 Mandala Airlines Penerbangan RI 091 gagal take off dari Bandara Polonia Medan dalam penerbangan menuju Jakarta, lalu menerobos pagar bandara dan menabrak perumahan pendudukdan masyarakat di Jl. Jamin Ginting Medan. Dari 117 orang penumpang dan awak, hanya 17 yang selamat. Korban dari masyarakat di darat, 41orang dinyatakan tewas.

Batavia also had a number of forced landings and near misses after 2005.

September 1997, Garuda, 244 people killed, it was the worst airline accident in Indonesia to date.

26 September - Garuda Indonesia Penerbangan GA152, jatuh di kawasan pegunungan dekat Medan, Indonesia; musibah pesawat terburuk dalam sejarah Indonesia; semua 222 penumpang dan 12 awak pesawat tewas.

Garuda also had fatal accidents in January 2002 (1 dead) and March 2007 (22 dead).

[lantern]

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]As the Lion Air plane was coming in to land, with an aircraft of national carrier Garuda following behind and another about to take off on the runway just ahead, the co-pilot lost sight of the runway as heavy rain drove across the windshield.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]The captain, an Indonesian citizen with about 15,000 hours experience and an instructor’s license, took the controls.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]Between 400 and 200 feet (122 and 61 metres), pilots described flying through a wall of water, according to the source. Bursts of heavy rainfall and lost visibility are not uncommon in the tropics but the aircraft’s low height meant the crew had little time to react.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]With no sight of the runway lights or markings, the captain decided to abort the landing and perform a “go around”, a routine manoeuvre for which all pilots are well trained.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]But the captain told officials afterwards that instead of climbing, the brand-new 737 started to sink uncontrollably.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]From 200 feet, well-practised routines unravelled quickly.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]“The captain says he intended to go around but that he felt the aircraft dragged down by the wind; that is why he hit the sea,” said the source, who was briefed on the crew’s testimony.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]“There was rain coming east to west; very heavy,” the source said, asking not to be named because no one is authorized to speak publicly about the investigation while it is under way.
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/LEY...-from-sky.html [/FONT][/COLOR]

[BulePilot]

I have in my 5 years in Indonesia been on 3 flights on Lion Air. The first return trip swore me off them but when my friends needed to get back to work following a holiday and Lion was on the only available option I decided "well if we go, we go together".

Nothing particularly wrong with that flight but I will NEVER fly with them again. The BNN busts and this recent accident as well as all the industry discussions only serve to bolster my view.

The primary issue with aviation in Indonesia comes down to the effectiveness of the regulator. Garuda undertook a massive turn-around following the heinous accident of 2007. It certainly shows, they really are becoming a world-class airline but they are very much doing it on their own because they have realised safety is good for business. Citilink by the way is a unit of Garuda.

I am fortunate enough that ticket prices don't much factor into my decision-making, safety and convenience come first and second. But travel is largely discretionary and I don't think it should require taking disproportionate risk.

[redsnapr]

....

safety is good for business. ....

Reminds me of the well known industry phrase "If you think safety is expensive, try an accident".

[pip]

Lion Air have had seven accidents in the last 11 years, six of which involved total hull loss. In those seven accidents 25 people died and how many were injured or disabled I don't know.

The chances of a Lion Air crash are higher than I would like, I don't know of any Western airline that writes planes of at the rate of one every two years or so.

The chances of surviving a Lion Air accident are high. So if you are going to have a crash, Lion Air seem a good option in which to have one.

If you are a Lloyds underwiter and are asked to insure Lion Air the best option is walk away.

[MattyRedSox]

But, apparently we all have some personal grudge against Lion Air... btw, have the results of the hair tests come back yet?

[pip]

But, apparently we all have some personal grudge against Lion Air... btw, have the results of the hair tests come back yet?

I have no grudge against Lion Air, I have only posted stats which are true. That is not a grudge. Would I fly them personally ... possibly. Would I get my Indonesian wife to fly them seeing what she sees on TV here ... never.

[MattyRedSox]

I have no grudge against Lion Air, I have only posted stats which are true. That is not a grudge. Would I fly them personally ... possibly. Would I get my Indonesian wife to fly them seeing what she sees on TV here ... never.

A poster a few pages ago accused several of us of having an agenda promoting one airline over another... my agenda is to not have people die or be traumatized needlessly.

[pip]

A poster a few pages ago accused several of us of having an agenda promoting one airline over another... my agenda is to not have people die or be traumatized needlessly.

OK but that does not mean we all have a grudge against Lion Air you stated.

[MattyRedSox]

OK but that does not mean we all have a grudge against Lion Air you stated.

Exactly, I think that you missed the point. I was being sarcastic, NONE of us have a grudge against Lion Air, we've been posting facts about them. Facts are facts.