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Lion Air Crash in Bali

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  • #31
    Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
    You are.

    "[FONT=Georgia]Pilot error has been the leading cause of commercial airline accidents by a wide margin for many years."

    [/FONT]Human error is biggest obstacle to 100 percent flight safety - The Denver Post
    I would say that human error should be focused on as well, because of the team effort that goes into running an airline safely, so Mr. B's idea of carelessness and negligence in maintenance is still a factor...
    QUOTE: "Anybody who throws a few pieces of chicken or whatever meat they have onto a gas grill deserves what they get..."

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    • #32
      I know first hand about the poor maintenance at Lion and the safety record of the Indonesian airline industry. I, as you avoid flying them.

      My response to Mr B refers to the worldwide airline safety statistical causes of accidents. Human error can also include the lack of training/experience that allows a pilot to fly an airplane out of a meteorological phenomenon, like wind shear.

      The accident investigation will certainly include ALL factors affecting the flight.
      "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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      • #33
        Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
        I know first hand about the poor maintenance at Lion and the safety record of the Indonesian airline industry. I, as you avoid flying them.

        My response to Mr B refers to the worldwide airline safety statistical causes of accidents. Human error can also include the lack of training/experience that allows a pilot to fly an airplane out of a meteorological phenomenon, like wind shear.

        The accident investigation will certainly include ALL factors affecting the flight.
        Yup, not arguing with you. Apologies if it seemed that way. I kind of got the feeling that you are pretty into this stuff.
        QUOTE: "Anybody who throws a few pieces of chicken or whatever meat they have onto a gas grill deserves what they get..."

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        • #34
          Worked for 20 years in an airline in the maintenance and flight ops areas. I'm now (since 2003) consulting for the aircraft leasing companies.
          "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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          • #35
            Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
            Worked for 20 years in an airline in the maintenance and flight ops areas. I'm now (since 2003) consulting for the aircraft leasing companies.
            Much respect. I will certainly defer to your much greater expertise. PM incoming.
            QUOTE: "Anybody who throws a few pieces of chicken or whatever meat they have onto a gas grill deserves what they get..."

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            • #36
              I've always felt pretty safe flying Air Asia. Not that I haven't flown dangerous ones. I flew Adam Air just before they were closed down. Never been that confident with Lion. I guess they need to add 1 more to their plane order list.
              Last edited by Jaime C; 13-04-13, 22:01.
              Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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              • #37
                Looking at the pictures it appears that he came in flaps up. Pilot error.
                "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that it is difficult to determine if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
                  Wind sheer may have caused the over/under run.
                  If wind sheer caused the overrun would the cause be wind sheer and not overrun assuming that overrun translates as putting the plane down too far up the runway?
                  "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                  George Bernard Shaw

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                  • #39
                    Depending on where and when on the glide path the wind shear is encountered, the effects on the glide's flight stability can differ. Overcompensating with additional engine thrust for a strong tailwind that lowers your relative airspeed can lead to higher than normal landing speed and / or longer touchdowns.

                    However, looking at several of the photos and reading what passengers onboard say on different news reports it looks like the airplane flew into the water short of the runway.
                    "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
                      Depending on where and when on the glide path the wind shear is encountered, the effects on the glide's flight stability can differ. Overcompensating with additional engine thrust for a strong tailwind that lowers your relative airspeed can lead to higher than normal landing speed and / or longer touchdowns.

                      However, looking at several of the photos and reading what passengers onboard say on different news reports it looks like the airplane flew into the water short of the runway.
                      So would 'short of the runway' mean wind sheer issues as I would assume that the pilot would be unlikely to put the plane down short of the runway in normal circumstances?
                      Last edited by lantern; 14-04-13, 01:10.
                      "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                      George Bernard Shaw

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                      • #41
                        It could have been a low level wind shear near the landing runway, also called microburst, or a combination of incorrect flap settings, or lower than normal approach speed and sudden encounter with heavy tailwind (not necessarily produced by a microburst).

                        Graphic of a microburst:

                        "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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                        • #42
                          This is how a successfully flown wind shear encounter during a final approach to landing looks like.



                          Were it not for the approach controller's warning and the corresponding pilot's response, one would assume this was just a regular landing.

                          Is that you, Davita, flying this bird on the left seat?
                          redsnapr
                          Member
                          Last edited by redsnapr; 14-04-13, 01:51.
                          "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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                          • #43
                            Living in Indonesia, this is one of the "topic" I hate the most and put fear in my body, because I love traveling and since my child is not a baby anymore I dream and already have start to flight to see all the beauties this country has to offer and has a lot!!! many amazing places there to go.

                            We all know all the Indonesian airlines companies were on the black list a few years back and I have been always very very scare about to flight in Indonesia with their airlines companies but until something like this happen is like you try not too think too much about this, after all thanks fully is not happen everyday so it is one of this things you have to learn to live with in this country.

                            I was, I am planning to go on the next school holiday in June to Kalimantan to see the orangutans and to Derawan and again the fear is in my body and my mind, scare me to death to think about to flight their planes and of course if it would be just me, probably will be a much easy decision but when is a husband and your own child involved is harder to avoid to be too scary, I hate this things...................
                            Overcoming poverty is no a gesture of charity is an act of justice the protection of a fundamental human right to dignity..

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                            • #44
                              What I find funny is this whole fear of flying certain if not all Indonesian airlines yet you have more risks of dying in accident every time you step in your car on Indonesian roads. Not only is this true for any country but even more so in Indonesia.

                              OK I'll admit that I got quite freaked out when I heard about the news because we usually fly Lion Air when we fly to Bali but a little bit of rational thinking and I realise that I may as well keep flying with them (or which ever airline has the most convenient flying times/cost at the time).

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                              • #45
                                Crashes happen. It's unfortunate but they do. I am not about to dwell on the crashes when the successful flights by far out weigh the unsuccessful ones. The streets are much more dangerous. I fly Air Asia and CitiLink. The flights have always been good. The service is another matter but since my flights are normally not that long I choose to ignore the service. I would rather have a good flight with lousy service then the opposite.
                                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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