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Lion Air Crash in Bali

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  • That's an amazing video, redsnapr. Scary terrain but very beautiful.

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    • The airport on that video is at the southern most city of Colombia near the border with Ecuador. The area of Colombia where the Andes split into three separate mountain chains that cross the country from south to north. In addition to the mountainous terrain (Galeras volcano is nearby), PSO has an altitude of 1,800 m and high winds almost year around. The area experiences a "windy season" once a year around the month of July-August, during which the airport has to be closed for air safety reasons.

      This video shows one of those cross wind/wind shear landing attempts at PSO as seen from the ground:

      "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

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      • Originally posted by lantern View Post
        .....[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]

        Could this be a case of cockpit dynamics where the the more experienced co-pilot (on the 777) was reluctant to confront the higher ranked captain?[/FONT][/COLOR]
        I doubt that. There was a third captain onboard, most probably the check pilot taking care of the training.
        "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
          I doubt that. There was a third captain onboard, most probably the check pilot taking care of the training.
          Then how the heck did they get it so wrong considering they had a lot of runway to play with?

          I haven't seen any report mention a third pilot - is that normal procedure?
          "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
          George Bernard Shaw

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          • So this was a training exercise?

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            • Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
              So this was a training exercise?
              It was the captain's first landing on a 777. He was an experienced pilot but on other aircraft.

              Edit: Maybe more correct to say that it was his first time landing at San Francisco airport although he had only 43 hours on the plane so cant have made many previous landings apart from the simulator.
              Last edited by lantern; 08-07-13, 22:38.
              "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • Here's a view of the runway from the BBC

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23222048
                Last edited by lantern; 08-07-13, 22:42. Reason: To add link
                "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                George Bernard Shaw

                Comment


                • Most longer international flights have 3-4 pilots. The switch partway through the flight, so they don't go over their allowable flight hours.
                  Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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                  • Originally posted by Jaime C View Post
                    Most longer international flights have 3-4 pilots. The switch partway through the flight, so they don't go over their allowable flight hours.
                    Yep

                    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]Lee was one of four pilots on board who were working in shifts Saturday. All four pilots have been interviewed by NTSB and South Korean investigators, said Choi Jeong-ho, the head of South Korean’s Aviation Policy Bureau.
                    [/FONT][/COLOR]​http://kdvr.com/2013/07/06/plane-cra...ional-airport/
                    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                    George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lantern View Post
                      Then how the heck did they get it so wrong considering they had a lot of runway to play with?

                      I haven't seen any report mention a third pilot - is that normal procedure?

                      Actually, there were four of them onboard.

                      "
                      [COLOR=#202022][FONT=Georgia]Four pilots were aboard the plane and they rotated on a two-person shift during the flight, according to The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport in South Korea. The two at the controls at the time of crash were Lee Jeong-min and Lee Gang-guk."
                      [/FONT][/COLOR]
                      Asiana Airlines president apologizes for crash that killed 2 - CBS News


                      I would be very surprised (and obviously concerned) to know none of them was a check pilot during the PIC's first landing into SFO.
                      "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

                      Comment


                      • "[COLOR=#000000]
                        [FONT=arial]Pilots generally learn how to fly new aircraft by undergoing many weeks of training at ground school classes and on plane simulators and, finally, by being shadowed by a "check airman." The check airman determines whether the trainee passes or will go back for more training.[/FONT]
                        [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]
                        [FONT=arial]Among the four pilots aboard Flight 214 was a "check pilot," U.S. investigators said, who was monitoring Lee."[/FONT]
                        [/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial]
                        [/FONT][/COLOR]
                        Did pilot have enough 777 experience? - CNN.com
                        "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

                        Comment


                        • Some interesting views here

                          [COLOR=#999966][FONT=Trebuchet MS]July 8, 2013[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Trebuchet MS][/FONT][/COLOR]What Went Wrong with Asiana Flight 214

                          [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Robert Schapiro[/FONT][/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Trebuchet MS][FONT=times new roman]Why would an experienced crew crash a perfectly functional Boeing 777 on what should have been a simple everyday approach and landing in perfect weather?[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]The jury is still out on the official cause of the Asiana crash but most experienced airline pilots have heard enough to know this is most likely a case of gross pilot error.[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]San Francisco runway 28 left had so few electronic landing aids operable, the Asiana pilots had no choice but to do a visual approach. (An approach without electronic guidance using visual runway references only). This should not be a problem for any experienced pilot.[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]But the black box details have already revealed the pilots continued their approach even though it was so poorly executed, recovery became impossible.[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]The underlying reason of their error is one that is both simple and frightening and one that we see occurring more and more frequently.[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]Airline pilots are losing their ability to fly their aircraft.[/FONT]
                          [FONT=times new roman]Overreliance on automation has degraded airline pilots' basic flying skills to the point that many seem unable to cope when they are forced by circumstances to hand fly the aircraft.
                          [/FONT]http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...light_214.html
                          [/FONT][/COLOR]
                          "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                          George Bernard Shaw

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                          • Its very sobering to understand that there were 4 experienced pilots on board, including one considered capable of and qualified to evaluate the performance of other pilots, yet none of them, during the most critical part of any flight, perceived in time to abort the effort, that the visual approach was going awry.

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                            • "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia]The pilot in command of [/FONT][/COLOR]Asiana Airlines Flight 214[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia], the Boeing 777-200ER that crashed on landing at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) July 6, told investigators that he assumed the aircraft’s auto-throttles were engaged and maintaining a speed of 137 knots as the 777 came in for a landing. The aircraft’s speed dropped to just 103 knots at the time of impact."

                              [/FONT][/COLOR]NTSB: Asiana 777 commanding pilot assumed auto-throttles were maintaining speed | Safety content from ATWOnline
                              "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
                                "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia]The pilot in command of [/FONT][/COLOR]Asiana Airlines Flight 214[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia], the Boeing 777-200ER that crashed on landing at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) July 6, told investigators that he assumed the aircraft’s auto-throttles were engaged and maintaining a speed of 137 knots as the 777 came in for a landing. The aircraft’s speed dropped to just 103 knots at the time of impact."[/FONT][/COLOR]
                                Oops, you know what happens when you ASSume such things.
                                Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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