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  • #76
    Originally posted by Todd-sun View Post
    Do you realize those kung fu moves come from China? China has a rich film history of women kicking men's asses, try looking up Angela Mao, Chang Pei Pei, Kara Hui.
    I've seen a few Kung Fu movies. I'm thinking more of trends in Hollywood movies.

    I guess by the op's calculations Asian men marry Western women because they want a spouse that doesn't cook or clean, talk back to them, or just don't generally take care of them, hmmm
    It might explain, partly, why there are relatively few mixed couples where the man is from Asia and the woman is from a western country. Usually, in these marriages white men marry Asian women, and the reverse is much rarer. I don't think submissiveness and traditional attitudes about keeping the home are the only variables in the equation, but it is one of them. I know some Asian men prefer more traditional women. I'm thinking of a conversation I had with a Korean a few months back. It is wise for a man who wants to marry to consider a woman's skills, and attitude. And what woman wants to marry a man whose going to always be on her case all the time? Women can consider how easy a man is to get along with, too, before marriage. I'd imagine a lot of Indonesian women wouldn't want to marry a man who said he wanted to marry a woman who was 'mampan' so he could be a house husband.

    If a woman does work outside the home, if she values caring for the household, taking care of kids, etc. those are good traits. It seems to me that on average, women in Indonesia value those things more than American women do. It depends on what segment of the population you are dealing with. Some women want just want to hire a maid and a nanny. A lot of what I wrote would apply better for a man looking at dating a woman whose economic class is 'mengenah ke bawa.'

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    • #77
      Originally posted by jukung11 View Post
      There are 8 pages so far of a chorus of people with anecdotes and figures from both westerners and Indonesians with a very different view of what the average of Indonesian woman are, what they think, and how they behave. Despite all of this, the original poster discounts or dismisses all other perspectives, and claims to know what "90%" of what Indonesian woman think. At first I was hopping it was more just naivete, but now it is pretty apparent that it is willful blindness. It seems more of an agenda, rather than to discuss the complexity of individual women of a society, but to put down western ideas of feminism.

      I was always told that "you can never win an argument with an ignorant man." You can all continue to engage LinkH, but I will not.
      Might it not be a display of ignorance to clearly wrongly portray someone else's view of things, or is it just laziness or a lack of internet ethics? I don't know. But I don't claim to have 90% of the population figured out. I would say that over 90% of the population has some allegiance to 'Islam', 'Katolik' or 'Kristen' if government statistics are remotely accurate. And these three religions teach wives to submit to their husbands. I haven't heard of counter-examples in Indonesia, though there could be a few exceptions. I don't expect 90% of the population to adhere strongly to the views of their religion necessarily, but I think it's quite a strong influence, and my general perception is that Indonesians tend to have a more 'traditional' view of gender roles in marriage. There are a few traditionally matriarchal cultures in Indonesia. Padang/Minang, is an obvious example. Maybe Aceh would fall into that category to some degree, with matriarchy being mitigated somewhat by Islamic influence in both areas.

      There are also individual personality and values differences among Indonesian women. There are also many subcultures in Indonesia. I consider it to be a lot more heterogeneous than the US, where I am from. I'm talking about the general cultural influences. Indonesian women, I believe, have a cultural 'script' of the wife being submissive to the husband, the husband being the provider, the wife caring for the home, cooking etc. Some say the best Padang cooks are men, but that is a matriarchal culture after all. I'd expect Padang Muslims to have heard that wives are to submit to their husbands as well, even if that doesn't line up with their traditional adat and inheritance practices.

      Even an Indonesian woman that bristles at some of the ideas I've posted may still reflect some of the cultural values in her own lifestyle. How many of you women who didn't like what I posted are married and cook dinner for your husbands?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
        You seem to think that in equal marriages, where the parties identify themselves as "feminists", partners insult each other. Where is your evidence? My husband and I have been married for 33 years and neither of us is submissive. Yet, I don't think we've ever called each other insulting names. Just because one doesn't follow the "submissive-dominant" model of marriage doesn't mean that the marriage is dysfunctional or that the spouses will mistreat each other.
        I think you are reading into my post. I said my wife would tell me if she had a problem with me, but she wouldn't call me names or things like that. A wife believing she should submit to her husband, if she holds submission as an important value, would see it as wrong to talk to her husband like that. But people in a nonhierarchical relationship (or who don't realize they are in one) can talk to each other without name-calling. Valuing submission can either help prevent name calling, though, or else it can help the person who did so to see that it was wrong. Submission in marriage can also prevent conflict and stalemates, even if couples usually come to an agreement on most issues.

        Now, if for your wife the definition of "meeting her full potential" is "being submissive to her husband" then that is between the two of you. But there is no need to make pronouncements that ALL women, in particular Indonesian women, are this way and should be this way.
        I didn't make such a broad statement. I acknowledge that I was generalizing in my opening post. I was talking about cultural tendencies. My post is for men who would like to find a wife with the characteristics I described to consider Indonesian women, because, on average, it seems like more of them have those traits than women from certain western countries.
        And of course, all the changes in society over the past few decades are the fault of those uppity women (despite the fact that our brains naturally incline us to be submissive)! Apparently females should stay home and consent to be abused, cheated on, and forced to bear however many or few children a man wants.
        It's interesting to me to see how you and many other posters will object to stereotyping, yet engage in it yourselves. Stereotying isn't necessarily immoral. Psychology tells us that it's an example of how our brains categorize information. We do it with people-groups just like we do it with other categories of information.

        Any expat whose read a book on Indonesian culture or taken one of those expat culture courses has been taught some stereotypes, and some of them can be very helpful for understanding and adjusting. The idea that a Javanese person out in a real Javanese village might laugh at an uncomfortable or embarrassing situation that someone from the US wouldn't laugh at is a stereotype, both about the Javanese, and Americans. But there is truth to it, and it's useful information for undertading how to understand and interact with people.

        But some stereotypes are immoral. If I said all Italians or Batak were gangsters, there is something immoral about that, because it isn't true. There has been a history of Italian gangsters in the US, and there are some two-bit 'preman' who are Batak (and also lots of lawyers). Prejudging all Italians or Batak as gangsters is a bad thing. I find it immoral to insinuate that men who believe that wives should submit to their husbands beat their wives or cheat on them, or that women who submit to their husbands would have husbands who cheat on them.

        That's the sort of thing I see a lot of in this thread. There are a billion Muslims out there, and wives submitting to their husbands is a part of that religion. There are nearly as many people who identify as Christians of various sorts, and historically Christians have taught that wives should submit to their husbands. It's in the Bible. There are also other religions and philosophies that teach the same thing, Confucianism, for example. I don't know that muc about Hinduism on this topic, but the idea seems to be a part of Indian culture as well. If you think that man who believes that a wife should submit to her husband is a cheating wife beater, then you will prejudge well over a quarter of the world, maybe over half. You'd been prejudging half the men on earth as cheating wife beaters.

        You'd probably also be judging most of your ancestors more than a generation or two back. Do you come from a long line of cheating wife beaters and doormats?

        I consider it moral for a wife to submit to her husband. I'm a Christian. That's part of my religious belief system. I consider the general, loose cultural trend of Indonesian wives submitting to their husbands (or at least that being the cultural archetype) as a positive thing about Indonesian women. I don't see it as demeaning or insulting.

        I notice you say nothing about men who cheat on their wives, bring home STDs, leave their families when children are small and need the emotional support and income provided by a responsible father, and generally make lives miserable for their partners. The fact is that if family structures fail, MEN bear responsibility as well.
        I say things about these topics. I just haven't mentioned them in this thread, because it's on a different topic. Sure, there are men who damage and destroy their homes as well. But that's not what I started this particular thread about.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Phalange View Post
          R.A Kartini would roll over in her grave reading this post.
          And also, don't forget the matriarchy system in Minangkabau, because, you know, Minangkabau women are Indonesian as well.
          I mentioned Padang and other matriarchal cultures. I have argued for some general cultural trends in Indonesia, but I haven't said that Indonesia is culturally homogeneous. I was going to say Minang or Minangkabau as an example, but I thought expats would know the word Padang.

          Also don't forget to mention the rate of cheating husbands. It seems unfair that you only mention the cheating wives. Also in this lines seem to me that you're pretty sure if your wife wasn't a submissive Indonesian, she would eventually get bored of you and cheat on you. Is that what you're afraid of? Please enlighten me.
          I'm not sure what post you are referring to, but my opening post was directed towards men considering dating and marrying Indonesian women. And no, I don't think that Indonesian women are the only ones capable of not committing adultery. Why would you think such a thing? If I had been dating a woman and I came to the conclusion that she was a high risk to commit adultery after marriage, that would have been a deal-breaker. I wanted to marry a virgin, and did, and virgins at marriage tend to be lower risk, IMO, for adultery. Research show marriages with a woman who was a virgin at marriage have lower risk of marital disruption (divorce, etc.)

          Of course. She is expected to breed.
          I think it was US research, maybe European, from a culture where people don't want to have that many children, but where it is a considered desirable for married couples to have sex. More sex in marriage is generally presented as a good thing in American culture (thinking of magazines, TV, etc.)

          Indonesian culture seems a lot more gung ho about having babies. When I got married, one of the office boys, who was probably 40-something, kept asking me every day, 'sudah diisi, belum?'

          Now the question is, do you marry someone because you find them attractive or do you marry them because you love them? Would you marry someone who is attracted to you because you have good jobs?
          I'm married. But before I met my wife, I would want to be attracted to a woman on some level before dating her, then the feelings could grow from there. If a woman was a bad match for me, I probably wouldn't ask her out to begin with When I did and found out, I got out of the dating relationship with her when I found out before things went much further. I wouldn't just marry a woman the day after I met her, because I found her attractive. It would be foolish to let yourself fall in love with someone or to lead someone on who you knew would be a bad spouse or a bad match for you.

          So you had a hard time getting woman in western country. That explains a lot.
          You don't like what I say, so you insult me. I got my first job in Asia when I was 22-years-old, before I started seriously looking for a wife. I could have stayed in the US and dated if I'd worked in the US. Women did seem more interested in me in Indonesia, but I was in Indonesia during a time of life when I was a more serious candidate for marriage than when I was young in the US or elsewhere in Asia.

          Kenapa banyak orang disini suka menfitna orang?


          I let my colleagues (both male and female) read this thread, and sir, they are not amused.
          If I were an Indonesian man, I might not appreciate threads for expats about marrying up the local women, especially if I were single. I can see why some women wouldn't like the thread, but factually, do you disagree with what I've written? Do Indonesian women value submitting to their husbands more than western women? Do you disagree that the typical Indonesian woman might be less offended by a statement like "Wives should submit to their husbands" than a woman from a western country?

          Do you disagree with the idea that an expatriate man might benefit from having a wife who was taught to be submissive to her husband, or who values cooking and taking good care of the home? Do you disagree that these traits tend to be more common among Indonesian women than among women in certain western countries?
          Last edited by LinkH; 22-07-15, 06:32.

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          • #80
            I think you guys are being a bit harsh on poor Link. I don't generally find his postings misogynistic, although they are certainly a bit different from most western thinking these days.

            In my own situation, I was not looking to get married at all. I found someone who changed my mind. I do find many cultural differences between American and Indonesian women. Some are better on the Indonesian side, some aren't. I find the family unit in Indonesia to be closer, and more supportive than amongst the American families I know.
            Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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            • #81
              Originally posted by LinkH View Post
              If you think that man who believes that a wife should submit to her husband is a cheating wife beater, then you will prejudge well over a quarter of the world...Sure, there are men who damage and destroy their homes as well. But that's not what I started this particular thread about.
              I did not say that men who insist on submissive wives are cheating wife-beaters. You seemingly made the claim that feminism is responsible for the US divorce rate, thereby implying that independent women are responsible for modern society's ills. If you'd like to clarify and say that you don't think feminism is the cause of increased divorce rates in the US, please do. Otherwise, I'm going to go with the theory that you see it as a causal relationship. That being the case, a statement to the effect that "if family structures fail, men bear responsibility as well" is an appropriate response. And you as the OP don't get to dictate what observations people make in your thread.

              Finally, I can't help but answer this question you asked: [COLOR=#333333]Do you come from a long line of cheating wife beaters and doormats?

              The answer is yes. I was adopted so didn't bear the brunt of the dysfunction, but the details I could share involve child and wife abuse, cheating, divorce, and even a hint of incest and pedophilia. Now that I've answered your question, can you tell me the relevance of it?


              [/COLOR]

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              • #82
                Originally posted by LinkH View Post
                What are you talking about? Go back and read what I said. I said 'Low Divorce Rates' were an advantage, not an easy divorce. I haven't figured it out in a while, but I looked up some stats that indicated that divorce rates were a lot lower (much fewer in proportion to the number of marriages) than in the US where I am from.

                I definitely do NOT see easy divorce as a good thing. Maybe you read the wrong message.
                Oh LOW DIVORCE RATES..... I see, my mistake, I take back what I said

                I have no access to statistics about divorces in Indonesia.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I'm just tired of being insulted in this post, so I'll just point out what's wrong in your reply, sir. I hope you can see how silly it is


                  Originally posted by LinkH View Post
                  I mentioned Padang and other matriarchal cultures. I have argued for some general cultural trends in Indonesia, but I haven't said that Indonesia is culturally homogeneous. I was going to say Minang or Minangkabau as an example, but I thought expats would know the word Padang.






                  I'm not sure what post you are referring to, but my opening post was directed towards men considering dating and marrying Indonesian women. And no, I don't think that Indonesian women are the only ones capable of not committing adultery. Why would you think such a thing? If I had been dating a woman and I came to the conclusion that she was a high risk to commit adultery after marriage, that would have been a deal-breaker. I wanted to marry a virgin, and did, and virgins at marriage tend to be lower risk, IMO, for adultery. Research show marriages with a woman who was a virgin at marriage have lower risk of marital disruption (divorce, etc.)






                  I think it was US research, maybe European, from a culture where people don't want to have that many children, but where it is a considered desirable for married couples to have sex. More sex in marriage is generally presented as a good thing in American culture (thinking of magazines, TV, etc.)


                  Indonesian culture seems a lot more gung ho about having babies. When I got married, one of the office boys, who was probably 40-something, kept asking me every day, 'sudah diisi, belum?'






                  I'm married. But before I met my wife, I would want to be attracted to a woman on some level before dating her, then the feelings could grow from there. If a woman was a bad match for me, I probably wouldn't ask her out to begin with When I did and found out, I got out of the dating relationship with her when I found out before things went much further. I wouldn't just marry a woman the day after I met her, because I found her attractive. It would be foolish to let yourself fall in love with someone or to lead someone on who you knew would be a bad spouse or a bad match for you.






                  You don't like what I say, so you insult me. I got my first job in Asia when I was 22-years-old, before I started seriously looking for a wife. I could have stayed in the US and dated if I'd worked in the US. Women did seem more interested in me in Indonesia, but I was in Indonesia during a time of life when I was a more serious candidate for marriage than when I was young in the US or elsewhere in Asia.


                  Kenapa banyak orang disini suka menfitna orang?




                  If I were an Indonesian man, I might not appreciate threads for expats about marrying up the local women, especially if I were single. I can see why some women wouldn't like the thread, but factually, do you disagree with what I've written? [COLOR=#ff0000]*The answer is YES*[/COLOR] Do Indonesian women value submitting to their husbands more than western women? Do you disagree that the typical Indonesian woman might be less offended by a statement like "Wives should submit to their husbands" than a woman from a western country?


                  Do you disagree with the idea that an expatriate man might benefit from having a wife who was taught to be submissive to her husband, or who values cooking and taking good care of the home? Do you disagree that these traits tend to be more common among Indonesian women than among women in certain western countries?

                  You said that you wrote the thread to praise Indonesian Women. The fact that any Indonesian Women I've shown this thread to weren't amused by the thread, means that you had failed sir. You insulted us in your post, so I believe I had the right to insult you back on my previous post. I apologize though, because insulting people is not a nice thing to do, and I was taught to apologize when I have made a mistake. And my mistake here is keeping arguing with you.

                  I wish you and your submissive wife a happy and long marriage.
                  Cheers,

                  Princess Consuela Bananahammock

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Jaime C View Post
                    I think you guys are being a bit harsh on poor Link.
                    I can't speak for others in this thread (nor do I need to), but "poor Link" speculated, in a clearly disparaging way, that I am a single white cat lady who is jealous of Indonesian women. When people use race, marital status, and gender as insults like that, I get annoyed. Jealousy is of course a bad thing, but there is no cause to jeer at someone for being white, single, or a lady.

                    Also note that his statement was an attack on me personally, responding to my impersonal observation that marrying a submissive virgin would be advantageous for a sexually insecure guy who was inconsiderate in bed - which was actually a logical extension of his thesis about the advantages of marrying Indonesian women, who according to Link are more likely to be submissive virgins.

                    Did I accuse Link of being sexually insecure/inconsiderate? No, I did not. (And FTR I am sure there are plenty of men married to (ex) virgins who are wonderful lovers.)

                    Link is the one who chose to make the conversation personal. Or rather "harsh," one might say.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by LinkH View Post
                      A society can be patriarchal without seeing 'women as chattel' or having slavery.




                      I don't think your Star Trek utopia will be realized. It depends on a kind of complacent benevolence of men, which I don't think is something stable over the centuries. It's also causing damage to women's lives, men's lives, and family life, so I expect some kind of backlash and philosophical shift eventually. I also suspect philosophical imperialism of ideas from the west will be supplanted by influence from China in the next several decades, especially in Asia, as that country rises in influence and strength.

                      My OP actually praises Indonesian women, in general, for holding to certain cultural values that some westerners do not value much, virginity and submission.
                      Patriarchy is the essence of inequity and for all intents and purposes requires women to assume a subservient position. Any serious student of history understands that patriarchy and women as chattel did and do enjoy a hand in glove relationship.

                      I take it from you attempt to disparage the progress societies have made toward more equity, you feel striving for that idea is a bad thing. World wide advance toward gender equity, for example, is frowned upon, while the vestiges of inequity such as virginity and submissiveness (measures of purity patriarchal societies apply to women only) are revered.

                      Seems to me that the more China adopts Western values, the more they prosper.

                      Fortunately your view of the world is increasingly marginalized. That's a good thing and not only for assertive women who enjoy sex.
                      Last edited by waarmstrong; 22-07-15, 11:14.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                        That's a good thing and not only for assertive women who enjoy sex.
                        Very true. Around the world there are many families who followed a patriarchal model who are plunged into poverty when the breadwinning male dies, disappears, or becomes incapacitated. How much better and more secure it is for children, and for society as a whole, if all adults are considered capable and are encouraged to participate in the economic life of the community. It provides children with a vital safety net that in many cases is not available otherwise. And it doesn't waste the brainpower of half the population.

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                        • #87
                          I hope Bill Cosby doesn't happen upon the OP's opening remarks and mistakenly assume his view of women would be well served by a move to Indonesia.

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                          • #88
                            Hi LinkH, I think there are some truths in generalization made by the OP, and i don't find any of them insulting at all when thought in line with cultural/religion PoV. But since those majorities (that arent really able to speak/write English) you speak about don't even touch these expat forums, it is common sense that you will find many disagreements in this forum.

                            I think when i glimpsed over several infotainments about Indonesian female celebrities... when they have married, they follow their husbands as the husband is the head of the family (ulama). It is viewed by the wives more like a positive value than a degrading one. There is definitely a certain amount of submission, though not totally. We will probably be in the same debate if we were talking about burqa the Saudi Arabian females wear. While many people with 'critical thinking' will think of it as a degrading (some might think of it as slaving-like) practice, the women (that have been conditioned by their religion/culture as such all their lives) think of wearing burqas as a privilege. They will think the opposite when they see a beautiful woman expressing their freedom wearing bikinis. This is ofc just stereotypes and there are many exceptions.
                            Last edited by sand86id; 22-07-15, 11:30.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              The comment of Link make me so happy to not be an American. At least us we are more civilized! There is no one (as a generality) who constantly insult their husband and beat them up kung fu style!
                              All those poor american men have all my sympathy. Poor them! Never showing any kind of violence (verbal & physical) and having such awful wife!
                              Can you imagine! They answer you back if you order them around!!!

                              Back in indonesia, I agree with link that, as a society, indonesia will support the idea of submissive wife, starting with the hand kissing.
                              Definitively you will never hear "told your wife to shut up" in the west, which I heard here in indo.
                              But what he don't seem to understand is their is a difference on how people act in public and how it is at home after the invity left and door are closed.
                              Also, indonesian are said to be more prone to make drama (drama queen), I don't see how you put that in your equation???


                              I have plenty of advantage to be with my wife. The fact that she is indonesian is not in the list (sometime I would wish she could be of another nationality more open to foreingner!) And I would hate to have a submissive wife.

                              I would not find it advantageous at all to have a submissive wife, whatever is her nationality.


                              Another fact that you can have a chew on it.
                              A present spreading of HIV put a light on extramarital sexual activity who could be denied before. Now the conservative "leader" are ashamed a light have been put on the reality and are desperate to find a solution for saving their ego. So far they. Decide to balme the west and their condom and therefore banning condom (in bengkulu).

                              Yo! They are all virgin!
                              La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by sand86id View Post
                                Hi LinkH, I think there are some truths in generalization made by the OP, and i don't find any of them insulting at all when thought in line with cultural/religion PoV. But since those majorities (that arent really able to speak/write English) you speak about don't even touch these expat forums, it is common sense that you will find many disagreements in this forum.

                                I think when i glimpsed over several infotainments about Indonesian female celebrities... when they have married, they follow their husbands as the husband is the head of the family (ulama). It is viewed by the wives more like a positive value than a degrading one. There is definitely a certain amount of submission, though not totally. We will probably be in the same debate if we were talking about burqa the Saudi Arabian females wear. While many people with 'critical thinking' will think of it as a degrading (some might think of it as slaving-like) practice, the women (that have been conditioned by their religion/culture as such all their lives) think of wearing burqas as a privilege. They will think the opposite when they see a beautiful woman expressing their freedom wearing bikinis. This is ofc just stereotypes and there are many exceptions.
                                Sand, the problem is not so much that the OP noticed certain cultural characteristics, traditions or values, but that he maintained that these differences were especially advantageous for white men on the basis of having Asian women serve them. He even doubled down on it, suggesting that feminism has had unforeseen consequences for societies and families. This is not just offensive for Indonesian women, by the way, it's also offensive to Western men and women as it plays on another unsavory stereotype, that of the ugly, desperate old pensioner who snagged himself a youthful Asian caregiver and also the unhappy, uptight, hypervigilant feminist cat lady always on guard for some new male threat.

                                If he had argued that it was different and had pros and cons, I would have probably been a lot more OK with it. If he would have talked more about HIS relationship and how it was for him and made fewer generalizations, I would have probably been a lot more OK with it. But it's not like my relationship, and that's why I (and pretty much everyone else here) have a problem with it. We're just not seeing ourselves in his narrative, and I don't think it's just because it's not what we want to hear.
                                Last edited by DanInAceh; 22-07-15, 15:19.

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