Looking to Live in Indonesia Bringing Parents too

[MarcoPolo]

Hi Guys,

Im new here, i'm single young Moroccan entrepreneur i was living in Europe, than i decided to move to Malaysia where i have lived for about 4 years with business visa, after visiting Indonesia several times and dealing with some Indonesians i really enjoyed the experience comparing to Malaysia "this is my opinion", both are great but the Indonesian people are from another world very kind, educated very welcoming and easy to deal with.

Now, i know a good girl. she is from Bandung and sometimes we talk seriously about having a serious relationship (marriage), but i have a lot of questions for you guys as you better know the Indonesians

I have a lot of questions hope you can help


1) Any opinions about marrying an Indonesian ? do they look for money ? do they are good wives generally speaking ?

2) Any abusive law against the foreigner spouse to be aware of or avoid ?

3) Can bring parents after marriage / getting a visa ?

3) Cost of life in a city like Bandung for a family of 4 (renting 2 apartment's / houses), more or less just to have an idea +/- ?

4) Best cities to live as a foreigner ? Things/places to avoid ?

4) Is it easy to do business (online - e-commerce) with spouse visa ?

5) How is life / economy there generally after the covid ? do they still asking for covid certificate at entrances ?

Thank you

[marcus]

1) Any opinions about marrying an Indonesian ? do they look for money ? do they are good wives generally speaking ?

2) Any abusive law against the foreigner spouse to be aware of or avoid ?

3) Can bring parents after marriage / getting a visa ?

4) Cost of life in a city like Bandung for a family of 4 (renting 2 apartment's / houses), more or less just to have an idea +/- ?

5) Best cities to live as a foreigner ? Things/places to avoid ?

6) Is it easy to do business (online - e-commerce) with spouse visa ?

7) How is life / economy there generally after the covid ? do they still asking for covid certificate at entrances ?

1) From my experience of a second marriage with Indonesians , the two are very different , so I guess like anywhere in the world , it a question of luck .

From what I heard/saw , rich Indonesians (or from rich families) are (in general) more difficult to deal with . And poor Indonesians usually are closer to relatives , if so expect helping financially all her relatives .

(2 I would not call them abusive , but there are some rules restricting foreigners to live in Indonesia , like the limitations in owning a house/apartment .

3) You can , but no privilege by being a spouse of an Indonesian . If one of them is 55 or over , maybe the best would be a Retirement Visa + a "dependent" Visa .

4) Living cost is very dependent on your life style . I would guess it is cheaper than in Malaysia (labor cost certainly is) . You may have an idea by checking rent cost and things' price in the internet , for example , searching for "sewa rumah apartemen di Bandung Utara" (Utara/North Bandung is my suggestion) , and www.Shopee.co.id .

5) Well , I guess foreigners like Bali . I like Bandung .

6) Yes , but in your Indonesian spouse's name for small and medium business .

7) Yes , in Shopping Centers and for domestic flights . Economy is relatively good . The International Monetary Fund (IMF) forecasts a 5.4% growth for Indonesia in 2022 .


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https://www.expat.or.id/info/info.html#OutsideJakarta (Living Outside Jakarta)

https://www.expat.or.id/info/sitemap.html (About Indonesia)

[MarcoPolo]

Hi Marcus,

I would like to thank you so much for your quick answer, as you said the marriage is all about luck, but you might know there is a standard pattern everywhere like for example, in Malaysia they look for rich foreigner, in Indonesia i think they are so different because i had a deep conversation with many Indonesians and i can feel the difference +1 for Indonesia

"if so expect helping financially all her relatives ." Hahaha True i have seen this here in Malaysia too, i think this culture is proper to Asia (Chinese woman always try to bring her parent to live with her)

" but there are some rules restricting foreigners to live in Indonesia" You know in Malaysia is even worse as for working you need the permission of your wife, for visa renewal you must bring your wife to the immigration, if your wife die and you have children you will be chased from the country even after 20 years living in, and many other restrictions it's really crazy !

- For parents maybe better a dependent visa its ok

- Yes for the living cost, yeah look like cheaper than Kuala Lumpur, thanks for the suggestion of Utara/North Bandung i will look it up

- We have same vision in this matter, i hate touristic places, i prefer living with local population, i.e places like Pangandaran, Cimaja in Java are super nice (i'm a sunset hunter )

"Yes , but in your Indonesian spouse's name for small and medium business ." This is the problem everything you need your wife name your wife permission your wife assistance


I don't know from where you come from, but do you think Asia or SEA is still interesting for the coming years for us expats in term of ease of living, possibility of doing business, Taxes, etc ?

[marcus]

(a) ...but you might know there is a standard pattern everywhere like for example, in Malaysia they look for rich foreigner, in Indonesia i think they are so different...

(b) ...in Malaysia is even worse as for working you need the permission of your wife, for visa renewal you must bring your wife to the immigration,

(c) For parents maybe better a dependent visa its ok

(d) "Yes , but in your Indonesian spouse's name for small and medium business ." This is the problem everything you need your wife name your wife permission your wife assistance

(e) ...do you think Asia or SEA is still interesting for the coming years for us expats in term of ease of living, possibility of doing business, Taxes, etc ?

(a) Well , about this I guess it is common in countries with many women without good jobs and/or the salaries are low . Even in South Korea , I heard that women with relatively good jobs search for husbands who earn more than them . In my country (South America) , a little richer than Indonesia and where in many universities there are more female students than male students , a big percentage of male medical doctors are either married or engaged when they graduate (in my engineer university , very few had girlfriend) .

What I heard a lot here is that many Indonesian women think all foreigners in Indonesia are like bank ATM/automatic teller machine (not rich but I guess in average it is true that the foreigners here are better financially than average Indonesians) . Another common thinking here is that Indonesians like people with white skin (my ex and the present wife , both confirmed this to me) .

(b) It is not very different here . Immigration & residence's Government Registry Office require the foreigner's Indonesian spouse to sign request letter/form for any foreigner's document .

(c) To make it clear , I said if one gets a Retirement Visa , this one can sponsor the other spouse for a dependent Visa . You or your Indonesian spouse cannot sponsor your parents (in Indonesia long stay Visa/Residence Permit require a sponsor) .

(d) In Indonesia foreigners cannot have small & medium business . Any foreigner can have his/her own Indonesian business (not in all areas) , but with at least Rp1 billion invested with others or Rp10 billion alone .

(e) I know a little about USA and some European countries , but I prefer living in Indonesia . I never did business here , so I don't know (from what I see buying online is that price competition is hard , I would focus in product/service quality) .

[MarcoPolo]

Yes, For the money i can understand and i think most foreigner understand the situation, but what i personally don't like is when they take advantage and try to grab as much as possible from you here it become really ugly, for the white skin i approve they all say the same, like in Vietnam for example, if you are fat for the girl and society in general is you are rich and in good health, but in the west as you know fat is unhealthy and stupid .. Asia is really crazy hhhh

(b) Yes but the advantage in Indonesia is after few years even you divorce you maintain your residence, in MY no, you lose this status and you must return to your country

Well thank you so much again and it was a pleasure

[marcus]

...(b) Yes but the advantage in Indonesia is after few years even you divorce you maintain your residence...

It is not that simple . First you must hold a KITAP sponsored by your Indonesian spouse . No problem if your marriage is older than 10 years , but for newer marriage there are more restrictions (see below) . A new Regulation also states that your sponsor must have at least Rp100 million in (a) bank(s) (I lost my KITAP because the sponsor I proposed was poor) .

Note : KITAP is a residence permit card which you will be eligible for one only after 2 years of marriage .


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PP no.31 Year 2013 (not an official translation)
Article 163
(1) For mixed marriage that lasts less than 10 (ten) years, the KITAP will remain valid although his/her marriage has ended due to divorce and/or upon court decision , if the foreigner concerned has a sponsor.
(2) The sponsor as contemplated in clause (1) must be an Indonesian .
(3) The sponsor as contemplated in clause (2) must be submitted to Immigration Office within the maximum period of 60 (sixty) days as of date of divorce deed is issued.

[MarcoPolo]

What i mean is in MY even after 10 years there is no alternative, Indonesia at least you have the PP no.31 Year 2013, Article 163

But This is crazy because finally you can not plan to have a kids or to establish in indonesia for long long term with a peace of mind, SAD

Anyway thank you so much for all these clarifications

[marcus]

...you can not plan to have a kids or to establish in indonesia for long long term with a peace of mind, SAD

In my view , the biggest risk in this story is having children (there other Visa/Residency Permit options available) .

You may be separated from the children if you divorce . Divorce is around 30% probability in big cities of Indonesia . Then maybe other 90% probability that the ex-wife will get custody of young children (below 12 y.o. for Muslims, as far I heard and saw in the rules) . Plus maybe 30% to 80% that the ex-wife will not allow you to see the children (guessing : 30% for poor women , 80% for rich ones or the ones who already have somebody to support them) .

Note : Please be alerted that the numbers are without statistical support , except about the divorce that I did read once but can't provide a copy (basically it showed big differences dependent on places/regions , more divorces in big cities , around 30% being the maximum (but increasing) .

[MarcoPolo]

Ah yes, it's crazy in MY i was ready to get married and have kids but this things push me back, and they can only have 1 citizenship, so if they choose mine they will need a visa to enter MY, i guess Indonesia is same, so they are doing everything to make foreigner life difficult, i understand that they protect their citizens but this is really unfair

Well this make me think twice before engaging with an Asian girl

[marcus]

(i)...and they can only have 1 citizenship,...i guess Indonesia is same...

(ii) this make me think twice before engaging with an Asian girl

(i) In Indonesia your children could have dual citizenship until the age of 21 .

(ii) I don't see it this way . Divorces are even higher (near 50%) in many other countries , so being separated from your children is a relatively big risk : anywhere in the world and/or being married with any woman regardless of her nationality .

And if you want to choose the nationality , the probability of finding a compatible partner decreases considerably .

In my country I never had a girlfriend , but in Indonesia I married twice , so it is also a question of luck/opportunity .

[MarcoPolo]

(i) In Indonesia your children could have dual citizenship until the age of 21 .

(ii) I don't see it this way . Divorces are even higher (near 50%) in many other countries , so being separated from your children is a relatively big risk anywhere in the world and/or being married with any woman regardless of her nationality .

(i) Finally its the same, i prefer even after 21 they keep both citizenships
(ii) No, im talking about laws not about the woman's. laws against the foreigner are not fair and make me think twice before engaging (except if i want to live elsewhere)

[marcus]

I know some of the Indonesian Laws which most affect foreigners and , in my view , they are reasonable (would not consider unfair - a little unfair is the size of bureaucracy that foreigners have to deal with , but Indonesians also suffer due to that) .

In relation to your concern , I think that the restrictions of the laws/regulations are small when compared with the risk of having children . As I see it , a proof of that is what we see already in few countries where the population is decreasing because there are more deaths than births .

In my view , the big unfairness in this story is with the mothers . The women stop working to have/take care of the children and later if they divorce (or the husband just disappear) they may never find a good job again ; plus many loose their attractiveness due to having children , making it difficult to marry again .

[MarcoPolo]

" if they divorce (or the husband just disappear) " i heard lot of stories about this .. so sad there is lot of single moms in Indonesia



Apart of marriage visa KITAP, what kind of visa (long term) is let's say easy and not so expensive to settle in Indonesia ? i asked an agent and she proposed to me

INVESTOR KITAS using PT PMA in Bali but the price was like $3200 /y ($1900 + Dependent $1200 / year) (VERY VERY EXPENSIVE)

What do you think ? can i get it cheaper ?

[marcus]

(I) Apart of marriage visa KITAP, what kind of visa (long term) is let's say easy and not so expensive to settle in Indonesia ?

(II) i asked an agent and she proposed to me INVESTOR KITAS using PT PMA in Bali but the price was like $3200 /y ($1900 + Dependent $1200 / year) (VERY VERY EXPENSIVE)

(I) Long term visa (one year) depends on your specific situation : what you intend to do in Indonesia . If you want to work your option is only a Work Visa (except if you work in new technology area) or Investor Visa (limited work) .

If not for work an easier visa is the (60 days up to 180 days) Social Visit Visa , but you need an (relatively rich) Indonesian to sponsor you . Or if you are over 55 y.o. there is the one year Retirement Visa .

Official visa prices are not expensive , the main problem is the sponsorship .

(II) This is an illegal way to get an Investor Visa .

The 2 years legal Investor Visa/KITAS requires you to invest a minimum of Rp1 million , but cost only US$180 + around Rp4 million (US$280) , but you have to do all by yourself . The Retirement Visa/KITAS you will have to hire an agent (around Rp11 million +US$150 (Visa + KITAS) for the first year and Rp8 million (only KITAS) for the following years) . The dependent Visa/KITAS you can also do it yourself for around US$150 + Rp2.5 million .

[MarcoPolo]

Thank you Marcus, i see Indonesia is atractive for living to be honest, also for business/investing. i still think SEA will be the future with Africa

Now the US and many companies around the world are looking for China alternative and they are planting their factories in SEA

Now im between the 2 years legal investor / This spouse-sponsored KITAS

2 years legal investor. can i have the company dormant or should i have an activity ? i think i need also to fill tax forms and pay some fees right ?