Pre-Nuptial agreements revisited

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  • poppy
    Member
    • Jun 2009
    • 1

    #16
    Dear forum,

    My name is Helene. I was searching for more information regarding setting up a prenuptial agreement and fell upon this forum, which seems to contain very knowledgeable individuals.

    My fiance, who is an Australian citizen and I hope to be married on the 9th September 2009.

    I was wondering if you or anyone else you can refer me to without having to go to another solicitor would be able to spare their time to read the 2 drafts we have made and provide us with honest and insightful opinion on which one is the better agreement. I’ve spoken to several solicitors but I'm worried that most of them seem to advice us without really listening to what we want. We haven’t got many prenuptial agreements to compare with unfortunately, so we would appreciate it very much if you let us know of any mistakes, pitfalls or technical inconsistencies.

    Unfortunately, these 2 drafts are in Indonesian. Would that be ok?

    If it's allright with you, as I cannot post the 2 drafts on the internet, would I be able to email you these? My email is: dkeats82(-at-)(-hotmail-)(-dot-)(-com-)

    Thank you in advance
    Helene.

    Comment

    • squid
      Member
      • May 2009
      • 20

      #17
      Originally posted by squid View Post
      The question re: registering a pre-nup here in Hong Kong is still in the air; It might take us a while to find a notary who is genuinely aware of the Indonesian Government's requirements.
      I've been meaning to post to this thread for the past few weeks, but haven't had time. This afternoon, however, I have a few moments:

      The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, (telephone # 2890 4421), suggested that I use the services of a specific Notary Public for the pre-nuptial agreement. The Notary Public which the Consulate General pointed me to was Arthur Kam Yuen Au, (Room 1201, Wing On Bldg., No. 26 Des Voeux Rd., Central, telephone # 2524 1183).

      Mr. Au charged me HK$2000 for the service. I used the exemplar pre-nuptial agreement from this website, with some modifications of course, and Mr. Au's office retyped it to their standards. They were quite nice and professional, and they were able to complete the entire transaction within 1 hour, the day after I had made the appointment for the service.

      I do not know if Mr. Au is the only "game in town" as far as The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, is concerned, but they recommended him and I was happy with the service.

      The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, charged me HK$160 to register my marriage. They took the original marriage certificate and I returned a few days later to collect it. They did not know what to do with the pre-nuptial agreement when I presented it to them at the same time as I presented the marriage cert. The clerk at the consulate told me that she could not register the pre-nup.

      The pre-nup and the marriage will be registered once we move to Indo.

      Thanks again for the assistance!

      Comment

      • ManggaDua
        Member
        • Jul 2009
        • 5

        #18
        confused

        Originally posted by squid View Post
        The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, (telephone # 2890 4421), suggested that I use the services of a specific Notary Public for the pre-nuptial agreement. The Notary Public which the Consulate General pointed me to was Arthur Kam Yuen Au, (Room 1201, Wing On Bldg., No. 26 Des Voeux Rd., Central, telephone # 2524 1183).

        Mr. Au charged me HK$2000 for the service. I used the exemplar pre-nuptial agreement from this website, with some modifications of course, and Mr. Au's office retyped it to their standards. They were quite nice and professional, and they were able to complete the entire transaction within 1 hour, the day after I had made the appointment for the service.

        I do not know if Mr. Au is the only "game in town" as far as The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, is concerned, but they recommended him and I was happy with the service.

        The Consulate General of the Republic of Indonesia, Hong Kong, charged me HK$160 to register my marriage. They took the original marriage certificate and I returned a few days later to collect it. They did not know what to do with the pre-nuptial agreement when I presented it to them at the same time as I presented the marriage cert. The clerk at the consulate told me that she could not register the pre-nup.

        The pre-nup and the marriage will be registered once we move to Indo.

        Thanks again for the assistance!
        Hi, I'm in the same situation as Squid at the moment. However, I'm still a bit confused. My understanding from the posts -
        1) A pre-nup needs to be drafted by an Indonesian Notary Public and registered in the local indo courts.
        2) The sample pre-nup on this site still needs to be re-drafted into a notarial deed by a qualified Indo Notary and witness both parties signing the deed. i.e. You cant just write one up youself.
        3) Squid's example confuses me as the recommended Notary is not an Indonesian Notary? which contradicts point 1). (Squid - Correct me if I'm wrong please)
        4) Squid will register the pre-nup later along with the marriage in Indo. If this is possible, what's there to stop peope from getting married in another country and backdating the pre-nup to a date before the marriage date.
        My assumption is that the prenup needs to be registered in the local courts before the marriage?

        I ask all these questions because I'm planning to marry my indonesia fiancee outside of indo and wont be making plans to go to indo anytime soon so looking at ways we can draft up the deed legally and correctly and registering it without having to physically fly to Indo.

        Thanks.
        M.

        Comment


        • #19
          No, the prenup does not need to be registered. However, for Muslim marriages officiated by Kantor Urusan Agama, the existence of a prenup will be noted in the Buku Nikah.

          Comment

          • squid
            Member
            • May 2009
            • 20

            #20
            Originally posted by ManggaDua View Post
            Hi, I'm in the same situation as Squid at the moment. However, I'm still a bit confused.
            If you are still a bit confused, then you are indeed in the same situation as I.

            Originally posted by ManggaDua View Post
            My understanding from the posts -
            1) A pre-nup needs to be drafted by an Indonesian Notary Public and registered in the local indo courts.
            2) The sample pre-nup on this site still needs to be re-drafted into a notarial deed by a qualified Indo Notary and witness both parties signing the deed. i.e. You cant just write one up youself.
            3) Squid's example confuses me as the recommended Notary is not an Indonesian Notary? which contradicts point 1). (Squid - Correct me if I'm wrong please)
            I was told by the Consulate General in Hong Kong that they do not have notary services for pre-nuptial agreements, but they recommended the notary which I listed in my post. I brought him the pre-nup which I typed up myself, using the exemplar on this site as a reference; the notary then had his staff re-type it and print it out on letterhead for us to sign.

            Originally posted by ManggaDua View Post
            I ask all these questions because I'm planning to marry my indonesia fiancee outside of indo ...
            congratulations.

            Comment

            • Sour Sally
              Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 11

              #21
              Originally posted by burungkecil View Post
              As far as I remember a postnup has little or no legal weight. It certainly won't help get you out of the property ownership problem.
              Why do you think so? Where did you read that postnups are not valid in Indonesia?

              Comment

              • atlantis
                Banned
                • Jul 2008
                • 16594

                #22
                The Indonesian Civil Code says so. I did quote the exact article of the KUHPer in one of the thread concerning prenup.

                Comment

                • ohmdafyd
                  Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 4919

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Mauricio View Post
                  No, the prenup does not need to be registered. However, for Muslim marriages officiated by Kantor Urusan Agama, the existence of a prenup will be noted in the Buku Nikah.


                  Atlantis, is this point accurate?
                  My understanding is that a Pre Np had to be registerred with the Indonesian Courts and I posted that in another thread yesterday, can you clarify this aspect of a Pre Nup please.
                  IknowthatyoubelieveyouunderstandwhatyouthinkIsaid, butI'mnotsureyourealisethatwhatyouheardisnotwhatI meant.

                  Comment

                  • atlantis
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 16594

                    #24
                    Legally speaking, it does not have to be registered to the court but to the Capil or KUA (depending on one's religion). I (and most of the people I know here had the same advice from various notaris) was advised by the notaris who drafted ours to register it to the PN (I did) but I don't think it is "mandatory". At least I don't recall having read any stipulation making it mandatory. Maybe a further proof of its existence and validity (?). The registration costed me IDR 100.000 (after tough bargaining) if I recall well. The price was worth the paper.

                    Comment

                    • ohmdafyd
                      Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 4919

                      #25
                      Ok thanks for clarifying that, I hope the op in the other thread sees this and that my info was incorrect.
                      IknowthatyoubelieveyouunderstandwhatyouthinkIsaid, butI'mnotsureyourealisethatwhatyouheardisnotwhatI meant.

                      Comment

                      • ohmdafyd
                        Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 4919

                        #26
                        What does that acronym stand for, PN? ... and yes I did look through the thread listing many of them but it doesn't appear to be listed.
                        IknowthatyoubelieveyouunderstandwhatyouthinkIsaid, butI'mnotsureyourealisethatwhatyouheardisnotwhatI meant.

                        Comment

                        • Sour Sally
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 11

                          #27
                          Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                          The Indonesian Civil Code says so. I did quote the exact article of the KUHPer in one of the thread concerning prenup.
                          Atlantis, can you give the exact reference? Could not find it.... thanks

                          Comment

                          • atlantis
                            Banned
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 16594

                            #28
                            Originally posted by omdafyd View Post
                            What does that acronym stand for, PN? ... and yes I did look through the thread listing many of them but it doesn't appear to be listed.
                            Pengadilan Negeri or local court.
                            MK stands for Mahkamah Konstitusi (Constitutional Court of Justice) and MA for Mahkamah Agung (Supreme Court of Justice).

                            Comment

                            • Sour Sally
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 11

                              #29
                              I still could not find any law saying that postnuptial agreements can not be valid in Indonesia.

                              Concerning the topic of land ownership, the obvious reason for this chaos about prenups is that the marriage law and the land ownership law contradict to each others (what notaries and dodgy BPN staff do not seem to regret too much...). The prenup is an obvious attempt to dissolve the contradiction, but no law says that it is the only solution. I don't see for example, why a simple spousal consent about the ownership of the particular property would not be sufficient, instead of a prenup or postnup.

                              Saying that if someone does not have a penup, then "game over" or "you need to divorce, transfer the ownership twice, do a prenup and remarry again" sounds as much nonsense as the weird interpretation according to which "in the absence of a prenup the foreign party is forced to own the property which is an illegal situation and therefore the government could confiscate the property". The purpose of prenups is to agree BETWEEN the marrying parties about their interests and not to provide protection for BOTH of them against Indonesia's attempts to confiscate their properties!

                              Comment

                              • atlantis
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 16594

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Sour Sally View Post
                                Concerning the topic of land ownership, the obvious reason for this chaos about prenups is that the marriage law and the land ownership law contradict to each others
                                No they don't contradict.
                                Agrarian law says that ONLY WNI can have hak milik
                                Marriage law says thet asset in a marriage are joint property.
                                The Agrarian law did not say that ALL indonesian have right of ownership but that ONLY indonesian have right of ownership. Absolutely no contradiction but may be a wrong lecture from you. No offense intended.

                                Comment

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