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  • I'm sorry if this comes across the wrong way. I'm at a loss as to how to explain it diplomatically yet accurately. I don't mean to be rude, so please don't anyone get angry. I'm just diplomatically handicapped.

    If every foreigner here listened to his/her local spouse, I'm afraid the vast majority of us would be paying bribes through the nose or sitting on our butts doing nothing. I have seen so many comments like yours, Rich, where the local spouse wants to take the easy way out or give up. Even my wife tends to want the easy way (not a bribe so much as a shortcut) out of problems with the gov't. I'm thankful that my wife doesn't really have an interest in bribes because her father didn't like taking them (reputedly). However, my wife prefers to sit back and wait for things to resolve themselves unless/until I push her for resolution with the gov't. I've heard/seen the same thing from other foreigners and their spouses. I can mostly speak about the Javanese in regards to this phenomenon, but I've heard tell of non-Javanese spouses being the same way (bribe, wait forever or give up). It's not wrong, necessarily, but it is what it is. This is not the West, and we cannot expect things to proceed the way they do back home.

    What I am really trying to say here is that Indonesians are trained from a young age to accept the status quo, trust officials (or at least do what they say!) and not cause a problem. It's hammered into them, really, by parents and teachers. It's not a problem to bribe an official - it's just illegal. To reject a bribe request is causing a confrontation, which makes the official lose face and puts the applicant in a weak position (not legally or morally, just when dealing with that official if s/he's particularly single-minded in getting bribes) that can be abused through polite threats, inaction, long delays, etc. I blame it on the school system and the culture but, honestly, it SEEMS as if this sort of problem is fairly common to Asia because of the importance of diplomacy and saving face.

    Indonesians generally do NOT like confrontation at all. They'd prefer to prevaricate (equivocate, evade or lie) than to take a problem head-on. I've seen it time after time in my life, and heard about it from others. I can't say they are morally wrong or anything like that because they're actually trying to protect people's reputations, but the end result is rampant corruption.

    I'm probably wrong on some of this, but it's my opinion based on my own experiences and the comments of others.

    Stick to it, rich. If you give up, you might as well leave the country. I know it's difficult, confusing and frustrating, but have a little patience and diligence, and you'll make it.

    Namaste, Peace & Love,
    Glenn
    I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rich3276 View Post
      Well I am still waiting for some kind of feedback, my wife says give up...
      but I still want to try, maybe I hear something soon.

      @ mrcibubur
      The Kamin I went to was Blitar / Kediri its always trouble there if only a Social visa extension, its Kindergarden what they do with us there I know of other white people whom I personally met at the Kamin and they have advised me to go directly to Surabaya, I also know of a friend of mine he paid 10 Juta for a 60day Visa extension to save the hassle he said. I can not afford that.
      Just be patient and wait a little longer. You can try ringing or going in to the kantor for an update. If there are still no answers from them write a letter to the kepala of the kanim. Make sure the letter is very polite and state what it is you are trying to get and provide the relevent pasals to backup your request.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
        What I am really trying to say here is that Indonesians are trained from a young age to accept the status quo, trust officials (or at least do what they say!) and not cause a problem.
        I agree Glen. It has been a little fustrating in the past for me teaching an alternative approach for problem resolution to my wife. A lot of prodding and explaining that a government worker actually works for the people of the country and not for themselves.

        In Australia government workers have had the term 'public servants' having been paid by the government from the peoples' taxes to serve the people of the country.

        It is a very strange concept for an Indonesian to grasp.

        Comment


        • Thanks for the answers Glen and Blitarbule,
          I totally agree with what has been said here, and its a matter of socialisation to change it all, have the same problem teaching the people in my house i have house rules everyone is totally shocked by me but with 12 people living in my house discipline is important, anyway thats another story.

          I will not give up evan if my wife has no faith in the goverment, I have been in management most of life so i know how to standup for my rights, sometimes i am over the top...
          I will keep everyone updated on the situation maybe we can learn from this, and if anything new has come up like a work permit or anything new in imigrasi law please give me notice, then i have a new excuse to go back to imigrasi and get on there nerves... its just a pity that noone speaks english there...

          best wishes
          Andy

          P.s. where are you in Blitar Blitarbule? I am not far away

          Comment


          • Story continued from post #524

            Went to the KANIM of Yogyakarta today, one day after they told me to come back. I was ordered to wait and then called to the back. There I met with bapak kepala KANIM Yogyakarta himself. He gave me a soft handshake and started asking me how often I went back to XXX, in Kabupaten Tegal, the tiny village where me and my wife got married back in 200?. I told him I go there once a year. He said it was an area full of sugarcane right? Yes, I explained him there is an old Dutch Sugarfactory there. "Ever go fishing?" he asked. No, why? "Isn't there a nice lake around there?" Ohh, Waduk Cacaban you mean, sir. Yes I went there plenty of times, you can beautifully sail around and enjoy the view of Gunung Slamet from the water. We further chit-chatted about other areas within Kab. Tegal.

            Our conversation was witnessed by around 5 other immigration employees who all started laughing when I told things about Kab. Tegal. Bapak Kepala KANIM Yogya triumphantly laughed after a while and said "Yeah, he really knows XXX." I guess this was his way to check whether or not I really got married in XXX. Then they opened my folder and showed me an official TIKI receipt from a letter they send to the KUA in XXX, with a date on it from early last week. Until now they had not received an official reply/ letter from the KUA in XXX. They suggested me to go to XXX and make sure they send a letter back, stating my buku nikah is real. I excused, stating I was not able to go there. Well if you want it to happen quick, you go to XXX (7 hour bus ride from Yogyakarta) otherwise it might take longer, is what they said.

            I kind of know the kantor KUA in XXX, so I know there will most likely be no official letter coming back, if there's no one going there to hand them an envelop while kindly asking them if they have received a letter from the KANIM Yogyakarta. So my wife has contacted her sister, who still lives in that area. She is going to pay the KUA in XXX a visit t'row.

            Well I know now that the KANIM in Yogyakarta is ok with my change from ITK to KITAS. Let's hope my wife's sister manages to convince the people at KUA XXX to get behind their typing machine and pull out a few stamps....

            To be continued....

            Comment


            • Story continued from post #530

              Went to KanIm Yogyakarta this morning 08:05, (30/05) with a letter from the KUA in XXX in my hand. They asked me to copy it three times and ordered me to wait. Saw two people working very hard on a whole bunch of letters and forms. 30mins. later they handed me an brown bulky envelop which I should hand over to KanWIL Yogyakarta. Got on my motorbike drove down to KanWIL, showed my envelop to the guy behind a desk that had a plate saying "IMIGRASI" next to it. He told me to sit down. After 15 mins. he ordered me back and gave me an official receipt and told me to come back on the 2nd of May. I asked whether they were open on saturday. "Oh. no, sorry" He quicker changed the date to 04/06. I should be back at KanWIL on monday the 4th of June.

              Meanwhile my passport is still at KanIm Jogja, and has been there since the procedure started on 10th of May. So a little over 2 weeks. Still have about 5 weeks validity on my current visa kunjungan. The whole "getting a letter from the KUA in XXX" procedure took more than a week and required a 10,000 donation to the KUA office in XXX. I would advise anyone who's applying for a KITAS and that got married in Indonesia, to get such a letter from the KUA that "published" or "created" your Buku Nikah before starting the procedure. Saves you time.

              To be continued.....

              Comment


              • i got my letter 3 days to go to human rights i have just got back from surabaya with the stamp and new letter... i went to tikindo (logistics9 to send it to jakarta but i could not send they said i must produce an id or ktp; what a mess so i went home 200km to my wife and asked her she is is pissed off we must go back to tiki and try again... thats indo...
                i asked the guy at human rights if they can send the letter they said blunt they have no trust with post or other organisations , " u better bring alone to jakarta and make sure it arrives and then take back to us...." lol

                i asked "we live in modern times the letters can be sent electronically...." the guy said its not safe... (lazy or not flexible) i am lost in this world...! a ssl connection or ftp is easy...
                also the guy at the hum desk said i must pick up alone no family members can pick up because of bad experience in the past... i live 1000km away omg
                wats wrong in indo....

                any comments or advice would help
                the letter is my house how i get it there
                my wife read the letters and said all its all approved i want it so bad... HELP...... why so much trouble.....

                Comment


                • I am confused as to I read the latest thread posts from Cabral and Rich. I am sympathetic to their problems because we are all experiencing problems in coming to terms with niggling things which KanIM and KanWil and others require of us. I am confused because I have in the last 12 months done a Muslim marriage at KUA, a newborn baby registration here plus a conversion from Sosbud to Kitas, a duplicate Kitas when original Kitas lost and now a Kitas extension plkus two Merps extensions. I got stamped (legalised) copies of the Buku Nikah at time of marriage and I have subsequently obtained (fairly recently as prompted on this Forum) letters from KUA and Lurah to register the Muslim marriage at Catatan Sipil. No cost, just a little running around. I have subsequently learnt that I might have to register my Muslim marriage with my Foreign Consulate (with which there are issues) while also registering it with the three Departments for Muslim marriage overriding KUA, Hukum and Ham plus the Office for Foreign Affairs. The last three things I have not yet done.

                  I paraphrase it because I am confused by Rich reference to 'Human Rights' office. Are we talking the same thing? We should all know the process for conversion from Sosbud to Kitas first time around, it has been spelt out very many times on this Forum on numerous threads. You can be fortunate if your KanIm and KanWil, as well as Polda and even Polres may I add, are all in the same town or city more or less. For most of us I think outside of jakarta, that is NOT the case.

                  Rich, I think you mean the KanWil letter you had to send to DirJen Jakarta before returning to your KanWil and onwards again to your KanIm to complete your Kitas process. I apologize if I have misunderstood.

                  Comment


                  • KanWil is the Area Office of [COLOR=#333333]Kementerian Hukum dan Hak Asasi Manusia aka Hukum dan HAM = [/COLOR][COLOR=#333333]Ministry of Law and Human Rights. As Atlantis has explained one of their roles is oversighting the decisions of KanIm and DitJen in respect of visa/ITAS/ITAP matters.[/COLOR]

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=rich3276;257120]i got my letter 3 days to go to human rights i have just got back from surabaya with the stamp and new letter... i went to tikindo (logistics9 to send it to jakarta but i could not send they said i must produce an id or ktp; what a mess so i went home 200km to my wife and asked her she is is pissed off we must go back to tiki and try again... thats indo...
                      i asked the guy at human rights if they can send the letter they said blunt they have no trust with post or other organisations , " u better bring alone to jakarta and make sure it arrives and then take back to us...." lol

                      WELL AFTER ALL THAT THE POST ARE UNABLE TO READ THE ADDRESS ON THE LETTER,,,, BACK HOME AGAIN WITH THE LETTER

                      120 KM FOR NOTHING......

                      ANYONE KNOW THE ADDRESS IN JAKARTA, I LOOKED ONLINE THEY HAVE MANY SECTIONS....... AND ADDRESSES

                      mrcibubur: I am sorry but I am not sure what you are writing about, and also do not know what I am doing or why I am doing things, Indo is a puzzle for me....

                      Comment


                      • Kementerian Hukum Dan Hak Asasi Manusia R.I.

                        Direktorat Jenderal Imigrasi

                        Direktur Izin Tinggal dan Status Keimigrasian

                        Jl. H. R. Rasuna Said , KAV. 8-9
                        Jakarta Selatan , 12940

                        ------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Better add your letter asking them to send the documents back as soon as they are ready . If you want the documents back quickly , it may be good to include a return express post's stamped envelope inside , or request a return courier paid service .
                        Last edited by marcus; 02-06-12, 17:54.

                        Comment


                        • The problem is that nearly everybody uses slightly different terms to refer to the same thing and it becomes confusing. It is now apparent that Cabral and rich are referring to DirJen (the main immigration office in Rasuna Said next to Malaysian embassy) and to the Kantor Wilayah. Referring to KanWil as the Kementerian Hukum dan Ham (which it probably is) is confusing. As we are discovering on this Forum, it may or may not be necessary to legalise/register a Muslim marriage from KUA in a separate with Hukum and Ham (which may or may not be the same place as KanWil. Knowing the right place to go and where and how to do it remains a confusing maze for us all.

                          Has anyone on the Forum actually independently registered their Muslim marriage with the three Government bodies named as for Muslim Affairs, Foreign Affairs and Hukum and Ham after Kua? As I have said, I have registered with Catatan Sipil at very least but beyond that, I remain unsure.

                          May I say that DirJen on Rasuna Said is very easy to find, just up from the main street leading to Mal Casablanca and next to Malaysian Embassy, if indeed you need to go there. We should all know by now, if on Kitas, know what is our KanIm and KanWil

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mrcibubur View Post
                            The problem is that nearly everybody uses slightly different terms to refer to the same thing and it becomes confusing.... Referring to KanWil as the Kementerian Hukum dan Ham (which it probably is) is confusing. .... We should all know by now, if on Kitas, know what is our KanIm and KanWil
                            All 3 immigration offices (city's/KanIm , province's/KanWil and Jakarta's/DirJen) we have to deal with , for the original KITAS , are under the Kementerian Hukum Dan Hak Asasi Manusia R.I.

                            Comment


                            • thx Marcus....
                              so kind

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mrcibubur View Post
                                The problem is that nearly everybody uses slightly different terms to refer to the same thing and it becomes confusing. It is now apparent that Cabral and rich are referring to DirJen (the main immigration office in Rasuna Said next to Malaysian embassy) and to the Kantor Wilayah. Referring to KanWil as the Kementerian Hukum dan Ham (which it probably is) is confusing. As we are discovering on this Forum, it may or may not be necessary to legalise/register a Muslim marriage from KUA in a separate with Hukum and Ham (which may or may not be the same place as KanWil. Knowing the right place to go and where and how to do it remains a confusing maze for us all.
                                I think I can help, mrcibubur. As marcus already explained, these different agencies are under the Ministry of Law and Human Rights (Kementerian Hukum dan Hak Asasi Manusia aka KemenKumHam). I found this difficult to grasp in the past but with the help of Atlantis' explanations and my own research, it's finally (hopefully!) straight in my head.

                                KanWil refers to regional offices that represent the main office of the Ministry in Jakarta, and there is one per region. Central Java's KanWil KemenKumHam is in Semarang, for example. When I went there back in March, I found it misleadingly labelled. Outside, in large letters, it prominently displayed "Kementerian Hukum dan Hak Asasi Manusia" in large letters, which could make someone confused enough to think they'd actually found the headquarters for KemenKumHam - which is wrong. You have to look at the whole sign carefully before you realize it's a regional office!

                                KanWil, or Kantor Wilayah, literally means Regional Office. There are, I'd imagine, other regional offices for other branches of the government, so it's safer (albeit longer) to refer to it as KanWil KemenKumHam or, perhaps, KanWilKumHam for short?

                                So, in reference to what I've bolded, KanWil is NOT the Ministry, but it is a regional office of the ministry. It's kinda like this: KanWil is to KemenKumHam as KanIm is to DirJenIm (just at a lower level within the same ministry).

                                In terms of the heirarchy, I believe this is correct:
                                Ministry of Law and Human Rights (MLHR)
                                Regional office of MLHR (KanWilKumHam)
                                Directorate General of Immigration (DirJenIm/DitJenIm)
                                Immigration Office (KanIm)

                                Namaste, Peace & Love,
                                Glenn
                                I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

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