Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Compulsory COVID vaccinations

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • marcus
    replied
    So , in response to the Bloomberg's article (see below) stating the "unusual" Indonesian Government's move , here is how it is not "unusual" at all .


    From https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/01/can-...aboolainternal (01 April 2021)
    Title : Here’s how you can be forced to get the Covid vaccine in the U.S.
    By : CNBC
    [...30% of U.S. adults still don’t want to get the Covid vaccine. But many of them may not have much of a choice.
    Both states and cities can mandate vaccines based on their legislative authority, and employers also have the right to require inoculation as a health and safety work rule.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    From https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...?sref=yLCixKPR (18 Feb 2021)
    Title : Indonesia to Punish Those Who Refuse to Take Covid-19 Vaccine
    By : By Arys Aditya and Claire Jiao

    [... The government can punish those who refuse the vaccine by stopping or delaying social assistance programs and administrative services as well as impose fines, according to a revised presidential rule. The actual form of the sanctions are left to local governments to decide. Making the Covid-19 vaccine compulsory is an unusual move amid widespread hesitance toward the shots that were rushed in its development...]

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
    (a) ...You want to take away my chocolate too?

    (b) ...you think it's ok to sacrifice a few..people lives...(whose lives you find expendable)...

    (a) As I said , all information is in the internet , very easy for you to get your "chocolate" .

    (b) I never said that . Let me say it in other words : if we don't vaccinate around 80% of the population , you are more probable to die due to the coronavirus (suposing you refuse the vaccine) than due to the vaccine (supposing you get vaccinated) .

    Leave a comment:


  • hawk1024
    replied
    Originally posted by marcus View Post


    Unfortunately what you want is an ideal world , where every citizen understand every subject . What I see is a very ignorant world , where , for example , people eat junk food and die due to preventable deseases .
    I don't think allowing choice and informing people of risks is out of reason. You want to take away my chocolate too? I also have to disagree with the fact that you think it's ok to sacrifice a few unwilling and uninformed people lives without knowing the overall benefit. You have no way of knowing if the people (whose lives you find expendable) would have affected the spread of the virus or not. Maybe they just stayed at home and never went anywhere and never encountered the virus to spread it.

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
    ...they need to be made fully aware of the risks and also made aware that there may be risks we aren't aware of yet.

    I think it is not a good idea for a government to say that to the population because the average citizen will get confused . People who are concerned of the risks can easily read about the risks in the internet .

    Unfortunately what you want is an ideal world , where every citizen understand every subject .

    What I see is a very ignorant world , where , for example , people eat junk food and die due to preventable deseases .
    Another example : even now after around a year of specialists start recommending , many people in developed countries are still against using a mask when required .

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
    Ask the people that lost loved ones because of the vaccine about the benefit...

    Of course it would be a very insensitive action .


    I use a lot the rules/ideas of "cost/benefit" and "a country as a big family" .

    Then , lets say , parents buy the vaccines to inoculate their children as the majority of the doctors say : there is no other medicine , recommend to vaccinate all children . So , is it not expected that the parents will mandate all their children to be vaccinated ?

    The cost/benefit of vaccinating around 80% of a country population :
    Cost : maybe 1 in a million of the population may die due to the vaccine (near the same risk to die by flying from Jakarta to Bali) , maybe 10% will lose a day of work due to the vaccine side effects , and obviously the cost to buy/vaccinate .
    Benefities : a country saves many more lifes than would lose if it doesn't vaccinate and recuperates maybe 2% to 10% of the country's economy (in which so many are losing their jobs due to the lockdowns necessary to contain the number of infected people within the capability of the hospitals) .


    ----------------------------------------------


    From https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/art-20486808
    Title : Herd immunity and COVID-19 (coronavirus): What you need to know

    [...What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease...For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission...
    ...COVID-19 virus...Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population..would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic...]


    -----------------------------------------------


    From https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-de...s-and-covid-19
    Title : Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Herd immunity, lockdowns and COVID-19

    [...The percentage of people who need to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity varies with each disease. For example, herd immunity against measles requires about 95% of a population to be vaccinated. The remaining 5% will be protected by the fact that measles will not spread among those who are vaccinated. For polio, the threshold is about 80%.The proportion of the population that must be vaccinated against COVID-19 to begin inducing herd immunity is not known...]

    Leave a comment:


  • hawk1024
    replied
    Originally posted by marcus View Post


    I still think that the benefit of being vaccinated is a lot bigger than the problems and also , unfortunately , this is a case where governments need to mandate , otherwise a considerable part of the population may decide not to be vaccinated , like is occurring now in Germany (see below) , and the whole health program may be delayed resulting in more virus infected people & deaths and a bigger economic loss for the country .
    Ask the people that lost loved ones because of the vaccine about the benefit. Since there are so many people who are skeptical of getting the vaccine, they may be on to something. It's not just fringe people with tin hats. If and when there is a vaccine that has been proven safe and effective for everyone, through actual clinical trials (not the rush job we've had) then I will probably feel differently about mandated vaccination. Just not at that point right now. However, I would like to see everybody that wants one to be able to get one but they need to be made fully aware of the risks and also made aware that there may be risks we aren't aware of yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
    ...just don't force me to until I am comfortable to do so.

    I still think that the benefit of being vaccinated is a lot bigger than the problems and also , unfortunately , this is a case where governments need to mandate , otherwise a considerable part of the population may decide not to be vaccinated , like is occurring now in Germany (see below) , and the whole health program may be delayed resulting in more virus infected people & deaths and a bigger economic loss for the country .


    -----------------------------------


    From https://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...e-b921196.html (25 Feb 2021)
    Title : Germany’s Covid vaccine stocks unused because people don’t want AstraZeneca jab
    By : Nicholas Cecil

    [More than a million people in Germany are being left at risk of Covid because a “psychological problem” means stockpiles of AstraZeneca jabs are not being used, a leading vaccine expert has revealed.
    Professor Thomas Mertens, who chairs Germany’s Standing Commission on Vaccination which advises the government, admitted there was a “problem” persuading people to have the Oxford/AstraZeneca jabs due to flawed perceptions about its efficacy.
    “We have about 1.4 million doses of AstraZeneca vaccine in store and only about 240,000 have been given to the people,” he told...
    We are working quite hard on this point and try to convince the people to accept the vaccine and really to gain the trust in the vaccine in the population.
    “But as you may know this is some kind of psychological problem too and it will unfortunately take a little bit of time to reach this goal.”...]


    -----------------------------------


    From https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2...vid-19-vaccine (06 Jan 2021)
    Title : Why are so many in France hesitant to take the COVID-19 vaccine? Misinformation and a history of health scandals have led to a powerful anti-vax movement, presenting France with a fresh challenge in the pandemic.
    By Rebecca Rosman

    [...According to a recent survey by the Odoxa polling group and Le Figaro newspaper, 58% of the French population are sceptical of getting the COVID-19 vaccine, compared with 33% of people in the UK and 41% in the US.
    “A lot of people just don’t trust what the government and scientific experts are saying,” Antoine Bristielle, a researcher at the Jean-Jaures think-tank in Paris, told Al Jazeera...]

    Leave a comment:


  • hawk1024
    replied
    Originally posted by marcus View Post
    This is the first time I see deaths that may be due to a vaccine for COVID-19 .

    If I am not mistaken , a few countries already are not using the? Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine in old people .
    Similar deaths have also occurred in other countries as well. This is one of the main reasons I urge caution and am against a government mandate. This is the outcome of just one of the vaccines. Compound this issue by every available vaccine. Are there other people that carry a great risk with any one or all of the vaccines? At this point, we just don't know. If you want the vaccine, then by all means get it, just don't force me to until I am comfortable to do so. 

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    This is the first time I see deaths that may be due to a vaccine for COVID-19 .


    ----------------------------------------------


    From https://specialty.mims.com/topic/fea...&elq_cid=41833 (16 Feb 2021)
    Title : Fears amid deaths: No cause for alarm

    [An unsettling report claiming 23 elderly deaths in Norway after receiving COVID-19 vaccine doses made headlines that sow fears among older adults most vulnerable to SARS-CoV-2. The report, downright disturbing as it was, didn’t tell the full story...

    The deaths of elderly vaccine recipients occurred during vaccinations of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, BNT162b2, in the Nordic country – where over 400 deaths from COVID-19 are being recorded weekly. Experts surmised the elderly may not have been accorded enough immunity from circulating high viral load within days of their first doses.

    Dr Steinar Madsen, medical director at the Norwegian Medicines Agency, downplayed the reports saying there is no evidence of a direct link between the string of elderly deaths and the BNT162b2 vaccine. “COVID-19 is far more dangerous to most patients than vaccination.”

    He said all those seniors were 75 years and older, with serious underlying diseases, and health authorities made it clear from the start that deaths will occur – in a time-related context with vaccination – among the oldest and the sickest individuals receiving the jabs. Madsen is not expecting a different outcome with other vaccines.

    No cause for alarm, says WHO

    Following a review of the deaths, the WHO GAVCS COVID-19 Vaccine Safety subcommittee also ruled out unexpected or untoward increases in the deaths of frail, elderly individuals after receiving the jabs. “The reports are in line with the expected all-cause mortality rates and causes of death in the sub-population of frail, elderly individuals,” it announced on the WHO website. “Available information does not confirm a contributory role for the vaccine in the reported fatal events.”

    The committee affirmed the benefit-risk balance of BNT162b2 being favourable to the elderly, hence no revisions to the recommendation around the safety of the vaccine were suggested...

    High chances ‘they’ve missed the boat’

    Dr Sharon Inouye, a geriatrician at Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts US, has sounded the alarm early in the vaccine trials. “A substantial proportion of studies may be excluding older subjects, purposely or inadvertently,” she said matter-of-factly. “When these trials are over, I don’t want to see that there’s no one in them over 75. If they create a vaccine or a drug that works well [only] in healthy 50- and 60-year-olds, they’ve missed the boat.”...]


    --------------------------------------------


    From https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/...-uk-study.html (02 march 2021)
    The Jakarta Post / Agence France Presse
    Title : Pfizer and AZ Covid jabs 'highly effective' in elderly: UK study

    [The Pfizer and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines have been "highly effective" in reducing coronavirus infections and severe illness among elderly people in Britain, with a more than 80 percent reduction in hospitalisation, official data showed Monday.

    In the over 80s, a single dose of either vaccine is more than 80 percent effective at preventing hospitalisation around three to four weeks after the jab, according to a Public Health England real-world study that has gathered data since January.

    The study comes as France and Germany consider reversing their refusal to authorise the AstraZeneca vaccine for people over 65 due to concerns of its efficacy...

    Both vaccines "are highly effective in reducing COVID-19 infections among older people aged 70 years and over," added the study...]

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
    (1) I'm not sure I want to be told by the government that I must submit to taking something inside my body that could be harmful to me.

    (2) There have been severe allergic reactions that could have resulted in death...

    (3) if not properly treated in a timely manner...

    (4) The time frame allowed for actual research and proper studies in order to rush this vaccine to market would not stand up to scrutiny under any other circumstances... We aren't even talking about 1 vaccine but multiple vaccines from different companies that use different methods. Too many variables.

    (5) I have to advocate for choice in this matter.

    (6) Wearing a mask doesn't pose any short or long term health effects, the vaccine definitely can...

    (1) I agree that we should not trust 100% anybody (not even a family member) , so we need to see the facts and/or check the opinions of the specialists .
    It is a fact that most countries' government (if not all) want their people to be vaccinated (I guess most countries' government have consulted their local health specialists to take the decision) .

    (2) Yes there were allergic/side effects , but to die due to a vaccine is very rare . Governments decision (I guess) is taken mostly considering unwanted problems compared with the benefit .

    (3) Here in Indonesia the Government is asking the vaccinated people to wait 30 minutes so if there is any adverse effect the person can be quickly treated .

    (4) Yes it is a valid concern , but up to now (after millions vaccinated people) fortunately I didn't hear/saw any news that would make me think twice .

    (5) I desagree that this is a question of individual choice because by not being vaccinated one can harm others besides harming himself/herself .

    (6) I agree , but when I mentioned "mask" was to give an example to refute the term "unusual move" used in the Bloomberg article (as both the mask and the vaccine have the same objective) .


    ----------------------------------------------------------


    From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4599698/ (Deaths following vaccination: What does the evidence show?) : ...This study provides convincing evidence that vaccinations are not associated with an increased risk of death at the population level.

    From https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55216047 (Covid vaccine: What you need to know about vaccine safety) : ...what do we mean when we talk about Covid vaccines being "safe" to use? "If you mean absolutely no adverse effect, then no vaccine is 'safe' and no drug is 'safe'. Every effective medicine has unwanted effects" says Prof Stephen Evans, from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. "What I mean by safe is the balance of unwanted effects compared with the benefit is very clearly in favour of the benefit."

    From https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-j...y-are-vaccines (Just How Risky Are Vaccines?) : ...the risk associated with vaccines is real, but it's very, very small...you know what the most common side effect is? A harmless, low-grade fever. That occurs in 1 in 6 patients, and 1 in every 20 patients experience a minor rash. If you're really unlucky, you'll experience a severe allergic reaction, but we're talking a 1 in 1,000,000 chance. Yep, one in a million...

    From https://www.singlecare.com/blog/news...on-statistics/ (Immunization and vaccination statistics 2021) : ...The most common side effects of vaccines include soreness at the injection site and low-grade fevers. Trace amounts of allergens may be present in vaccines, but serious allergic reactions to vaccines are rare, as minimal as one in a million doses administered...“Many vaccines can cause local temporary reactions such as redness, pain, rash, fever, and swelling,” says Leah Durant, a vaccine attorney ...“Serious and long-lasting vaccine reactions are rare,” says Durant. “It is estimated that approximately 1 to 2 individuals out of 1 million suffer serious and enduring injuries as a result of vaccines.

    From https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/6709455002/ (Take whatever COVID vaccine you can get. All of them stop death and hospitalization.) : ...While there are many mild cases of COVID-19, about 20% of infections result in severe disease, and nearly 1% of infected people die. For older people and those with underlying health problems, the risk of death can be anywhere from 10 to several hundred times higher...
    People who are vaccinated against viruses still occasionally get infected. But thanks to a vaccine-primed immune system, the infections never progress to make them seriously ill. The vaccine efficacy rates vary only with respect to mild forms of COVID-19 illness. When it comes to the measures that really matter — hospitalizations and death — they are all functionally the same...It is not just the vaccinated individual who benefits from vaccination. Most vaccines also reduce transmission of infection among people, and in so doing, help protect those who fail to mount an effective immune response to vaccines or who can’t get vaccinated because of their age or because they have a compromised immune system...

    From https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention...afety/harm.htm (The Harm of Skipping Vaccinations or Delaying) : ...The threat of death by disease isn't the only medical consequence of skipping vaccinations. An unvaccinated child faces lifelong differences that could potentially put him or her at risk...Women who are pregnant but not vaccinated can be vulnerable to diseases that may complicate their pregnancy...People who choose not to vaccinate their children also put others at risk if their child isn't vaccinated and becomes ill. Special groups of people cannot be vaccinated, including those with compromised immune systems (e.g. those with leukemia or other cancers). These people rely on the general public being vaccinated so their risk of exposure is reduced...

    From https://www.science.org.au/learning/...-vaccines-safe (Are vaccines safe?) : Benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks...Most reactions from vaccination are minor...Serious side effects from vaccines are extremely rare...

    Leave a comment:


  • hawk1024
    replied
    Originally posted by marcus View Post
    Anyway , in my view this Regulation is very appropriate , in the same direction of the other Indonesian Regulation (similar to regulations in many other developed countries) that imposes fine for people not wearing mask in places where its use is required .

    The other day I heard about an employer (in a developed country) who fired his/her employee who refused to be vaccinated (I would do the same) . Isn't this a similar penalty ?


    -------------------------------------------------------
    I'm not sure I want to be told by the government that I must submit to taking something inside my body that could be harmful to me. There have been severe allergic reactions that could have resulted in death if not properly treated in a timely manner as well as some untimely, unexplained fatalities. The time frame allowed for actual research and proper studies in order to rush this vaccine to market would not stand up to scrutiny under any other circumstances. I have to advocate for choice in this matter. Wearing a mask doesn't pose any short or long term health effects, the vaccine definitely can. We aren't even talking about 1 vaccine but multiple vaccines from different companies that use different methods. Too many variables. Hard pass for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    The way I see , the article from Bloomberg (see relevant part of it below) does not tell correctly what I read in the Indonesian Government Regulation (see above) .

    The main point is that the Indonesian Regulation states that people eligible to be punished are ONLY the ones that the Government defines as "target recipients".

    I would guess that an example of a "target recipient" is a public servant who works in close contact with many other people .

    Anyway , in my view this Regulation is very appropriate , in the same direction of the other Indonesian Regulation (similar to regulations in many other developed countries) that imposes fine for people not wearing mask in places where its use is required .

    The other day I heard about a similar way people may be forced to be vaccinated in other countries : an employer (in a developed country) who fired his/her employee who refused to be vaccinated .


    -------------------------------------------------------


    From https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...?sref=yLCixKPR (18 Feb 2021)
    Bloomberg
    Title : Indonesia to Punish Those Who Refuse to Take Covid-19 Vaccine
    By : Arys Aditya and Claire Jiao

    [... The government can punish those who refuse the vaccine by stopping or delaying social assistance programs and administrative services as well as impose fines, according to a revised presidential rule. The actual form of the sanctions are left to local governments to decide. Making the Covid-19 vaccine compulsory is an unusual move amid widespread hesitance toward the shots that were rushed in its development...]

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    So below is the related part of the Indonesian Regulation that should be the source of that article from Bloomberg :

    Note : Not the official translation
    PP no.14 TAHUN 2O2I (09 Feb 2021)
    ...................
    Article 13A
    (1) The Ministry of Health shall collect data and determine the target recipients of the COVID-19 vaccine
    (2) Every person who has been designated as a target recipient of the COVID-19 vaccine based on the data set as referred to in paragraph (1) is obliged to take part in the COVID-19 vaccination.
    (3) Excluded from the obligations as referred to in paragraph (2) for the target recipients of the COVID-19 vaccine who do not meet the criteria for receiving the COVID-19 vaccine in accordance with the indications for the available COVID-19 vaccine.
    (4) Every person who has been designated as a target recipient of the COVID-19 vaccine who does not participate in the COVID-19 vaccination as referred to in paragraph (2) may be subject to administrative sanctions, in the form of:
    a. postponement or termination of the provision of social security or social assistance;
    b. suspension or termination of government administration services; and / or
    c. fine.
    (5) The imposition of administrative sanctions as referred to in paragraph (4) shall be carried out by ministries, institutions, regional governments, or agencies in accordance with their respective authorities.

    Article 13B
    Any person who has been designated as a target recipient of the COVID-19 vaccine, who does not follow the COVID-19 vaccination as referred to in article 13A paragraph (2) and causes obstruction to the implementation of the prevention of the spread of COVID-19, in addition to being subject to sanctions as referred to in article 13A paragraph (a) may be subject to sanctions according to the provisions of the Law on infectious disease outbreaks.

    Leave a comment:


  • RobertBali
    replied
    Thanks for your reply Marcus.

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by RobertBali View Post
    (1) I read that "Indonesia's government has made COVID-19 vaccines mandatory for anyone who's eligible and warned of punishments for those who refuse."...

    (2) Will this also be compulsory for expats living in Indonesia on KITAS/KITAP visa?

    (1) Yes , it looks like it is true . I will further check the rule itself later .

    (2) I didn't read anything about that yet , but from what I understand , the Indonesian government prioritizes the people who work and recently , people aged 60 and above , so maybe old expats and expats with Work KITAS/KITAP may be included .

    There is also a discussion about allowing private companies to buy the vaccines themselves but to inoculate only their own employees (not to sell to private individuals) .

    So , in my view (before reading the Regulation) , even after the Provinces issue their Regulation , I guess only expats with Work KITAS/KITAP may be obliged to take the vaccine when their company's employees start to be vaccinated . And later when schools prepare to open , maybe expats with Student KITAS too .

    From https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...ng-queues.html (25 Feb 2021)
    The Jakarta Post
    Title : Indonesia starts vaccinating seniors, but many confused by online registration, long queues
    By : Ardila Syakriah

    [The government has rolled out its COVID-19 vaccination drive for elderly people across the country, one of the groups deemed vulnerable to the coronavirus. However, the process has been marred by long queues due to confusion and technical limitations of the online registration system. On Feb. 15, the Health Ministry announced the health authorities would roll out a vaccination drive for people aged 60 years and above. For the first phase of the drive, they would focus on inoculating the elderly in provincial capitals across the country. Then on Feb. 19, authorities distributed the link to online registration for the program via WhatsApp . Shortly after, however, the Health Ministry said the links were void and the official ones would be available on the national COVID-19 task force’s website...]

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X