2 terrorists dead in Ciputat

[JohnJohn2]

I just hope that God will give their souls forgiveness for causing so many misery to other people.
In fact, the police also should capture the ones spreading the hate speeches - they should be the one held liable for all the problems in Indonesia.
As all of you know, they are successful in making a certain area considered the terrorists as mujjahids/hero, thus it means from the area there MIGHT come others like them.

[Davita]

I just hope that God will give their souls forgiveness for causing so many misery to other people.
In fact, the police also should capture the ones spreading the hate speeches - they should be the one held liable for all the problems in Indonesia.
As all of you know, they are successful in making a certain area considered the terrorists as mujjahids/hero, thus it means from the area there MIGHT come others like them.

JohnJohn2
Sir, I do not know you but I would like respond to your post if I may.
I do not know what you mean by 'THEY'. Who are 'THEY'?
I assume you mean terrorists, but what kind of terrorism means 'THEY'?
To me it is clearly a Muslim religeous ideology/theology that creates this 'Terrorism'.
So, shoudn't the Muslim Community Leaders identify the problem, stop being in denial, and suggest and offer their own community practical solutions, like reporting those observed in nefarious activities?

David

[Mas Fred]

Better to shot them dead as Densus 88 are doing at the moment..

Agreed 100%. Dead solves a lot of problems in one. I recall the propaganda the last lot managed to get out while they were waiting for a well deserved death. No one needs more of that crap.

And once the so-called terrorits are dead or apprenhended, both the government of Indonesia and the people of Indonesia need to turn to the more unpalatable and uncomfortable task of self-analysis in order to determine how and why such mentalities perdure and thrive. Those who actively take up arms and committ acts of violence, I believe, are only the tip of the iceberg of a great mass of people whose instincts, outlook and devotion are thoroughly rotten.

So all Americans support or are responsible for the actions of Bush and the bad apples that were guards at Abu Ghraib prison? I don't think so as I don't believe that the majority of Muslims support this minority of idiot extremists. The people I know here do not support fools like Top and his mates. In fact they are quite vocal in condemning him. I will be visiting a madrasah on wednesday. They are doing a program for the students based around understanding other cultures to avoid this sort of stupid hate.
The sort of comment (bold) above is just hate politics no better than what we hear from the bombers.

JohnJohn2
Sir, I do not know you but I would like respond to your post if I may.
I do not know what you mean by 'THEY'. Who are 'THEY'?
I assume you mean terrorists, but what kind of terrorism means 'THEY'?
To me it is clearly a Muslim religeous ideology/theology that creates this 'Terrorism'.
So, shoudn't the Muslim Community Leaders identify the problem, stop being in denial, and suggest and offer their own community practical solutions, like reporting those observed in nefarious activities?

David

Islam has a corrupt element that preys on some. Like all extremists, they will use whoever they can to forward their strange cause. All political and religious extremists use the same type of tactics. See the British extreme right BNP or the nut jobs in the KKK.
To make the above (bold) true, you would also have to assume that the general public in the US south are all 'nigger' haters and all in the UK can't stand 'Pakis'.
It's all hate politics and all equally vile.

[waarmstrong]

I don't want to get off thread too far but Fred's analogies to the "peculiar institution" around which Southern US society was built was supported by the general Southern population throughout most of its history. The white leadership of the time, even more so than the leaders of Indonesia's Muslim communities today, little criticized the extremists among themselves and were defenders of the inequities inherent in the system during and long after (a 100 years) slavery was ended. It was not the white leadership that finally changed the society, but the leadership of the Black community, and the community itself who had the courage to stand up and say "enough!" coupled with forces from outside the south, mostly in the person of the federal government.

There are elements within Muslim ideology that are anti-democratic and condoning of inequities. Perhaps the mainstream leadership is disgusted by their extremist, but their criticism is faint. As was the situation with the Southern white leadership, to condemn the extremest would also call attention to the inequities within the ideology that ultimately sustain their own positions.

Fred, you would be well served to develop the analogies with which you may have direct experience -- those in the UK. Your references to the US are shallow at best and often completely off base. While you occasionally may be on point with your theses, the faulty comparisons tend to deflower the argument.

[Mas Fred]

My thought was the US now has a black president voted into office by the majority.
That can only mean the KKK are not in the majority thus all Americans can't be considered responsible for their actions.
I did not intend to add the word 'south' but I was thinking about it at the time and it sneaked in there.

I was going add "The US voted it's extremist terrorist into power and thus Americans could be considered more responsible for mass murder in Iraq than any Muslim could be the Jakarta hotel bombings as we never voted for Mr Top". I was but it was only to be added to wind up those on the board who like to knock Muslims so I decided against it.

[Mas Fred]

Added to my above.

[waarmstrong]

As far as your further 12 gage thoughts on America go, Fred, you missed the broad side of the barn again. To my suggestion the you stick to UK analogies, I add the suggestion that you not shoot from the hip. Your regurgitated theses are still feces.

[Mas Fred]

As far as your further 12 gage thoughts on America go, Fred, you missed the broad side of the barn again. To my suggestion the you stick to UK analogies, I add the suggestion that you not shoot from the hip. Your regurgitated theses are still feces.

That's the same as the anti Muslim posts on here.

I believe, are only the tip of the iceberg of a great mass of people whose instincts, outlook and devotion are thoroughly rotten.

I could say exactly the same about a great mass of American people whose votes, outlook and devotion to US imperialism are thoroughly rotten.

Would that be true and, if not, why is it true about Muslims who did not vote for their mass murderers?

Clearly both statements are bollocks so why is it allowed to say it about Muslims without being pulled up but bad news to say the same about Americans?

I'm not saying that some Muslims aren't bad news, it's very clear there is a hard core of bastards, but not as many as some posters like make out.

[Hombre de Maiz]

Alas, any possible discussion of the aberrations or defects of how Muslims interpret and practice Islam is blocked, avoided, forestalled by a red-herring, ignoring that "two wrongs don´t make a right". The problem with today´s Islam is not the making of the United States. The problem of today´s Islam is a making of Muslims throughout the centuries. The knee-jerk appeal to the wrongs and ills of the United States reflects the complaisancy and intellectual bankruptcy created by a rigid orthodoxy.

A likely reason is, as suggested by Waarmstrong, is that any criticism of extremist attitudes and mentalities (for example, an exacting literalism, a militant orthodoxy, fetishism of ritual and prayer, etc) would only serve to cast light on the questionable positions enjoyed by the so-called moderates. Or as I suggested even earlier, the moderates cannot so easily wash their hands of, disavow the extremists without, in the process, raising questions about the fudamental tenets and requirements of the faith as a whole. You´ve made your bed, now you must lie in it (with us unwilling innocent bystanders forced to lie with you).

[Mas Fred]

Alas, any possible discussion of the aberrations or defects of how Muslims interpret and practice Islam is blocked, avoided, forestalled by a red-herring, ignoring that "two wrongs don´t make a right".

I have a couple of election results to back up my naughty statement that there is something rotten in the United states. Where are your figures to claim as you did?
I make no such claim about two wrongs. I just say I can produce evidence to back up a claim that Bush is only the tip of the iceberg of a great mass of people whose instincts, outlook and devotion are thoroughly rotten. Where is yours?
(That is of course allowing for the disputed result that is widely regarded as a con job.)

All I'm asking you to do is back up your statement.