Small survey: Idea of a project

**Jakob** · 29-10-12, 01:24

Hello world!! Stockholm Syndrome is about some bank robbers in the 70's taking people working in the bank as hostages. Instead of fighting the robbers, the hostages became friends with them...

I don't have anything to do with that.

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Snake Oil Salesman
This is new for me! Thank you for pointing that out.
I looked in Internet and I understand the term. I also understand your worries, "social media will fix it all". Let me reply. I'm not a fan of social media, not in such sense.

I'm not a "Snake Oil Salesman". I will not promise you heaven. I never did in previous posts, did I?
The results are measurable. That's where the credits comes in the picture.

Activities that you can earn credits are both on-line and IRL activities.

If the users don't like to meet with each other, then it's just easy to leave. Then this tool is not for this user!
"You can't please them all, but it's fun to try." I like that saying!

This thread were only a survey, made as research. Maybe I was not clear enough??
I haven't begun the actual coding yet. And to make the explanation, because it's a new way of connecting people.

I will defiantly use Snake Oil in the presentation. As well as the pyramid games. I will explain why all these things are not either snake oil or pyramid.
"It's an on-line tool with IRL benefits." But of-course, it's not for any person! I'm also aware of that! Only persons interested and motivated within the subject and most people are not. I expect nothing else.

***
This typing is so developing for me!! Give me more!! :-)

**ReveurGAM** · 30-10-12, 09:57

Originally Posted by jstar

Some will jump on this saying: 'of course, it's a forum for ex-pats!', but when you see who reacted on this thread, you will find there is only one Indonesian: NaughtyGab. And he is in fact 'semi' local having grown up in Belgium. In my view that says quite a lot about motivation and level of interest.

You're absolutely right - this is an expat forum but it's open to everyone and there are a large number of Indonesians who visit here - even if they don't post. It seems you are unaware of the prevailing cultural trends here. Given the harmony principle employed throughout much of Asia, and the antagonistic nature of certain (cough cough) users here, why do you expect many of them to post? It goes completely against the grain for them to get involved in a conflict, even if it's online and especially if they have no stake in sticking their heads out so expats can shoot them down because of their poor English (which I've seen happen several times on here). We cannot presume that lack of involvement is because of lack of interest in the topic, especially given the negativity that some users have employed in talking about them. I hope you get what I mean. Further, some Indonesians (granted, not many) have contacted me privately and commented on this very thing.

I don't think many people here will disagree with me when I say that foreigners have much more problems dealing with the pollution and hygiene over here. Or do they just complain more and speak up easier?

I agree with you - we're much more bothered (and affected) by pollution and hygiene. Here's a test for you: Give beverages containing es batu and meals with raw veggies washed in tap water to 50 expats and 50 locals, then wait to see who gets diarrhea.

And, yes, we do complain more and speak up more readily. I have some other thoughts on this topic, but it's outside the scope of the discussion.

To think we or other ex-pats can be rather influential is not very realistic. The next president saying he's willing to kick a certain population (10%) out even if that sets the country back 10-20 years from an economic standpoint, is rather revealing. So foreign companies can threaten to pull back or ex-pats can leave Kemang/Menteng and it might hurt a bit financially speaking, but it's questionable if that will lead to any results.

If expats aren't influential, why are they sought (especially Caucasians) to teach in private schools, invited to speak at seminars and workshops, asked to appear in classes at universities, given prominent billing and have their photos put up, etc. even when they don't hold relevant credentials in the topic but are known to be knowledgeable on the topic? Why did Wahyu get several TV programs dealing with Islam? Why did the local government ask to make use of my involvement in the family planning program to stimulate interest amongst locals? The way in which we lack influence stems from the way in which we interact with locals - basing our statements, arguments and such on our cultural views and values rather than adapting what we're saying to the way they think and what they value. Bill and Melinda Gates quickly learned that to help in Africa, they needed to tailor their efforts to help Africans to African culture and not impress American culture on them. You cannot reach people unless you work within their framework. Clearly, foreign companies pulling out will have an impact - Mattel, LG, Philips, and Eveready are just 4 examples of companies that employ thousands of people in Indonesia - yet, this is not the kind of influence we are discussing here. I hope that makes sense.

And finally I come back to my hobby horse; what's in it for the local? Even if they are more aware of the (potential) problems, will that improve their immediate situation and short term outlook? We have seen that in many aspects of this society; people are focused on short term results.

Excellent question! They don't know what's in it for them, and patriotism isn't going to motivate many of them to save their country. It's one thing to play tug-o-war and climb-the-greased-pole to get prizes, and it's a completely different thing to make an effort towards something that isn't readily visible and understandable, that doesn't hold immediate benefits for them.

Here are some benefits:
Cleaner water, air and land, resulting in better living conditions, food and beverages, and less disease
Reduced electrical usage will result in reduced cost - energy-saving bulbs, cleaning your AC's filter regularly, raising its temperature a degree or two, unplugging "stand-by mode" devices when not in use, are all simple, inexpensive ways to save money.
Composting holds the potential for income through the sale of the hummus, as does recycling. The amount of money may not be tremendous for a rich guy like you, jstar, but there are lots of hungry locals out there!
Obviously, there are many other answers to what's in it for them - it just takes a skilled presenter to show them the benefits of taking action. Directly and indirectly, for them and their offspring, it's not too hard to quantify and qualify why they should.

Now I don't say it's all impossible and that we shouldn't try and 'lead by example' in some way (just to clarify; the word lead doesn't mean rule or be the boss or act superior).

:applause: That's the spirit!

We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop.
Mother Theresa

[/quote]

EXCELLENT quotation!

Namaste, peace & love,
Glenn

**Hombre de Maiz** · 30-10-12, 10:06

Originally Posted by ReveurGAM

...

If expats aren't influential, why are they sought (especially Caucasians) to teach in private schools, invited to speak at seminars and workshops, asked to appear in classes at universities, given prominent billing and have their photos put up, etc. even when they don't hold relevant credentials in the topic but are known to be knowledgeable on the topic? Why did Wahyu get several TV programs dealing with Islam? Why did the local government ask to make use of my involvement in the family planning program to stimulate interest amongst locals? ...

Maybe some, a lot of it has to do with what Dan termed "white privilege" [note to the mods: I happen to agree with Dan on this so please don't take it as baiting or "ingenous" provocation.] whereby "white folk" are just assumed to be knowledgeable, respectable, credible and authoritative for no other reason than...well...that they are white folk. Check out the current thread dealing with the local fascination with bule.

**bad_azz** · 30-10-12, 11:13

@Rev
May I just point out that every Indonesian home I have been in does not have AC. They (if they have electricity) only use the low wattage bulbs. They don't use washing machines, they wash clothes in a bucket in the street. They use human energy as opposed to paid for energy... why - because they cannot afford the alternatives... it is a much greener way of living even if it is not a conscious choice.
They don't compost - because to be frank they have little waste... the chicken is sucked right down to the bones.
So I think you are talking about the wealthier folks who either are or aspire to be filled with first world ideals- this takes me back to my earlier point... I don't think it is the Indonesians per se that need the education... maybe the west could learn a trick or two from the poorer people.
A life of austerity creates and abhorrence of waste.

**Annette** · 30-10-12, 12:18

Originally Posted by bad_azz

@Rev
May I just point out that every Indonesian home I have been in does not have AC. They (if they have electricity) only use the low wattage bulbs. They don't use washing machines, they wash clothes in a bucket in the street. They use human energy as opposed to paid for energy... why - because they cannot afford the alternatives... it is a much greener way of living even if it is not a conscious choice.
They don't compost - because to be frank they have little waste... the chicken is sucked right down to the bones.
So I think you are talking about the wealthier folks who either are or aspire to be filled with first world ideals- this takes me back to my earlier point... I don't think it is the Indonesians per se that need the education... maybe the west could learn a trick or two from the poorer people.
A life of austerity creates and abhorrence of waste.

True I know I am a bad offender as much as I am ebarressed to admit it but yep everything BA just mentioned I am guilty of

**Jakob** · 30-10-12, 18:21

I read with great interest!
I think some of the discussion is really off-topic. But since you take the time to discuss it, I assume there is a need to discuss these things.
I read and learn!

***
Project overview:
I've registered the domain name and just about to install a forum area.
I've rewritten the documentation.
I've rethought the payoff: "It's a social network with IRL benefits."
I've been contacted with one person interested to meet with me, based on this thread, and to discuss some ideas.

So far so good!!!
Please continue!! I read all!!
Thank you very much!!

**bad_azz** · 30-10-12, 22:28

You say off topic Jakob... but I am still unsure what your topic is... is all seems a bit wishy washy and undefined so far...

**ReveurGAM** · 31-10-12, 21:59

Originally Posted by Hombre de Maiz

Maybe some, a lot of it has to do with what Dan termed "white privilege" ...whereby "white folk" are just assumed to be knowledgeable, respectable, credible and authoritative for no other reason than...well...that they are white folk. Check out the current thread dealing with the local fascination with bule.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by bad_azz

@Rev
May I just point out that every Indonesian home I have been in does not have AC. They (if they have electricity) only use the low wattage bulbs. They don't use washing machines, they wash clothes in a bucket in the street. They use human energy as opposed to paid for energy... why - because they cannot afford the alternatives... it is a much greener way of living even if it is not a conscious choice.
They don't compost - because to be frank they have little waste... the chicken is sucked right down to the bones.
So I think you are talking about the wealthier folks who either are or aspire to be filled with first world ideals- this takes me back to my earlier point... I don't think it is the Indonesians per se that need the education... maybe the west could learn a trick or two from the poorer people.
A life of austerity creates and abhorrence of waste.

I have seen both the working class homes, as well as the blue collar homes - right up to some of the elite. There's a stark dichotomy that exists between these two worlds, as you have pointed out. However, I have also noticed certain wasteful behavior amongst the poor that is, by comparison to the rich, quite insignificant. Rich or poor, however, they are almost universal in their casual polluting of the environment via gaseous, liquid and solid waste. The old habit of dropping used packages made of leaves onto the ground or into the water after its contents were used didn't change when leaves were replaced with plastic, for example.

When I worked for the (reputedly) wealthiest family in Semarang, I researched and prepared a suggestion to replace the existing lighting in the compound where I worked for them with low-energy lighting like induction and LED. I worked out the cost, how long they'd get ROI (a year plus) and how much money they'd save after that. Despite the significant amount of money (literally tens of millions saved per year), the owner didn't want to make the investment. sigh

The poorer the person, the less wasteful they are, perforce. Indonesians do need education - just as it took education to cause Americans to start reforming their behavior which, as I recall from my youth, happened at least in part during Carter's presidency which was quickly stifled by Reagan's administration. Ignorance breeds poor habits, no matter where you're from or what your income. I once had a neighbor in the US who'd dump the trash from his car into the street. I asked him not to do that and his heated response was basically: "Then the street cleaners won't have a job." What a dolt. What I mean is, education can be applied anywhere because there are people everywhere who don't understand (and who don't care).