Looking for expats for 1 day filming next weekend in Bali - PAYING GIG

[Puspawarna]

As a moderator, I am going to let this thread stand for the moment, but I will temporarily delete it if the tone continues to slide into bickering and derision. There is actually some very useful perspective being offered here that people unfamiliar with the issues would benefit from reading about. Long term forum readers will realize that these kinds of questions come up a lot, and the arguments and facts surrounding them are well worth reviewing. In fact, if I may add one more point relevant to temporary gigs such as the one in the OP, I've heard it said that expats need to be particularly careful about appearances in the media because of the wide exposure that entails.

Madcat, I'm not certain but I think you may be confusing greves with the OP. You suggest (evidently to greves) that he "[remove] the post altogether and getting all the paperwork in order before you post it again" but greves is not in a position to do that - it is montee51 who would need to try again.

Davita, if you believe a post has breached forum guidelines, please report it. I did manage to appear in a cloud of sulfur this time, but that method doesn't always work...

[greves]

Crap. I had a long response typed up and hit post but somehow it didn't get posted and I lost the text. (Edit: it got deleted for being inflammatory, which, admittedly, it was!) In any case, to summarize what I had written, minus the flame:

If you're going to offer advice, like Puspawarna and Jamie C did, then offer advice. Note to potential respondents that the work may be illegal without a work permit, and to consider the risks of being visible in a media appearance. If you think something is illegal or in violation of forum rules, report it and let the mods decide whether or not to delete it.

Offering veiled threats such as MadCat's original response are condescending, unhelpful, and emotionally charged.

Despite what some of the responses in this thread seem to imply, the law is a sliding scale that can hardly be said to be black or white on anything, especially in the areas of enforcement and punishments, and legal risk is just another risk that normal human beings have to consider when they are going throughout their daily activities ("well, crossing the street here would be illegal jaywalking, but the traffic is light enough that it will be safe if I time it properly, and even if a cop sees me he probably won't mind as long as I do it safely").

I have already granted in a previous response that the OP is asking about illegal work - but it's hardly in the same line as an ad titled:

"English teaching position, 30 hours per week, 10jt per month salary. NO WORK PERMIT PROVIDED! Details inside..."

At some level, you have to be willing to let others make their own decisions and decide for themselves how they feel about the potential risks involved.

---

Unrelated note / snide comment (small flame): I'm glad to hear that sales isn't labor, so if I take a full time 40hr/wk job in sales and they come check for my working papers, I'll just tell the police "I'm in sales, it's not a real job." Hahaha.....

[atlantis]

For all those who think that the OP is infracting any law in Indonesia I have three examples to submit:

1. I have been attending multiple seminars organised by the Minister of Justice and Human Rights and sponsored locally by the Kantor Imigrasi. I've been photographed at these seminar, asked public questions and received answers. Difficult to deny I was there. As a compensation for me attending it, I'vereceived amounts, given by the imigrasi staff, varying from IDR 100.000 to IDR 200.000, had free food and drinks and various little stuff such as pencils, folders, stickers, notepad...etc. Each time, I've signed a book attesting that I received the money, and confirmed my identity.

2. Three months ago I've been invited to a seminar about narcotics and alcoolic beverages in Sulawesi Utara. The invitation came from the Governor, the Kapolda Sulut and the POLDA direktorat of narcotics. As a matter of compensation, I haven't received any envelop this time but I already received compensation in the past for attending similar seminars organised by POLRI in my daerah, notably for the socialization of UU 22/2009 tentang LLAJ. For the narco seminar each of us who attended received various gifts and I even managed to win one of the door prize (a voucher for night and buffet in a top manadonese hotel). Concerning this particular seminar, I've been invited ONLY because I am white/foreigner and speak fluently bahasa manado. The goal was to give an "international" look at the seminar and to have possibly a foreigner answering a few questions to the local press, which were invited to heavily relayin the seminar in local medias. The goal of the seminar was to give a launch to a promotion campaign to curb alkohol consumption in Sulut, with the motto "Brenti jo bagate" (In bahasa manado it would mean "stop drinking, mate").

3. I was recently invited by a major public bank to a dinner with the great Titi DJ and other artists giving a private performance. There was also a fashion show, with two orang asing being among the models. The Deputy President Director of this famous public bank was attending the dinner, along with a couple of other members of the Board of Directors and most of the public bank regional manager for the eastern provincies. I have no doubt that they had all the necessary izin to have the show and Titi DJ performing but I highly doubt that the orang asing had a KITAS and an IMTA. At the end of the dinner a quick chit chat with one of them confirmed it to me.

Questions: should we prosecute the Minister of Justice and kepala kantor Imigrasi klas 1 Manado (case 1.) and the Kapolda Sulut & Governor Sulut (case 2.) for illegally "employing" a foreigner for acting as a participant in a seminar? should we close this public bank and jail the Deputy President Director for organizing a show for his nasabah², with foreign artists performing without an IMTA?


Don't smile, these are questions I've seriously asked (well it was obviously a way of teasing him) to a friend of mine who is the kepala Rudenim (immigration detention center) Sulut and ex kasi wasdakim kanim Manado (the guy in charge for deportation) at the last imigrasi seminar I attended. His answer was correct, IMHO. No, because it is exceptional, not repetitive and therefore doesn't constitute a work. It's not a salary, but a compensation for transport. The company or the foreigners attending and receiving compensation are not breaking the law due to the exceptional nature it has. I have a proper work, a company and a traceable income, therefore I can't be prosecuted if I attend the OP's casting, as long as it isn't repetitive and it's not my profession. It would be impossible (and ridiculous) for Immigration to argue against it. They have better to do and they know it.

I totally agree with my Kepala Rudenim friend's interpretation. The notion of repetive has always been important in such decisions.

If one reads the Manpower and the Immigration law, nothing in it justify a prosecution/deportation of a foreigner who would be compensated for exceptionally attending the casting. If anyone has an example of prosecution and/or deportation of a foreigner who would have exceptionally attended a similar casting and get in trouble for it, please let me know. I've studied a LOT of immigration cases and am yet to see one.

In the 3 cases above, number 3 is the only one who is tangent. Should the foreign artists perform on a regular basis, or should their main reason to be in Indonesia be to perform, even only one time, then they could and should be in trouble.

I consider the type of ad the OP submitted as totally legit since the exceptional character of the casting is emphazised. Infracting it would just be as ridiculous as Imigrasi prosecuting it. If anyone as a case of prosecution/deportation for a similar case, please let me know. I am talking about actual prosecution, not about rumours or fantaisist threats made by an immigration officer in order to try his luck to extort bribes. I remember years ago an immigration officer who came straight to me while I was visiting the seksi wasdakim for a sosbud extension. To try to make me uncomfortable he trumpetted loudly in bahasa manado "Hey mister, I've seen you behind the wheel of one of your wife's mikrolets! You're making money!". I answered him something in the line of "Oh iyo? Maybe yes. I must have brought the mikrolet to the bengkel... but if Bapak thinks that I was actually working as a mikrolet driver, please build a case and prosecute me."... Since then, that guy has never talked to me again. Anyway, he knew that he had no ground to do so. I guess he got the message and realised how ridiculous his assertion was..

Sometimes it pays to seat down for a minute and think in the line of "does it make sense?". Indonesia is badly corrupted, but those in charge have a brain, ya know. They don't want to loose face that easily by arguing ridiculous cases which would backfire if properly handled by the foreigner.

[bad_azz]

This is an issue that has come up before (almost identical) - it was discussed at length - I looked for the not that old thread, but cannot find it- maybe deleted...
@greves, yep as already said, even a one off gig is classed as working and sadly the penalties are high- up to 5 years in prison or/ and deportation. It is a big risk and only fair that expats be aware of it ... also the OP needs to be aware too.




Edit...
I bow down to atlantis' post- we obviously posted at the same time... and its good if we can all learn from the forum x

On a side note about the law being a sliding scale... a good friend of mine spent a night in the slammer for playing dominoes (money was involved).
It was 2 days before Lebaran and the police wanted 10juta for his release...
with some negotiation it was reduced to 2 juta and he is out now.

So yes, something may seem far-fetched but this is Indonesia and things do happen.

[jave2001]

As usual you are correct Atlantis, for the last couple of years I have been invited to Kemhan and by TNI to speak at seminars as well as Polri Udara and get small compensation and free lunch or dinner. Never any problems or questions.

[atlantis]

On a side note about the law being a sliding scale... a good friend of mine spent a night in the slammer for playing dominoes (money was involved).
It was 2 days before Lebaran and the police wanted 10juta for his release...
with some negotiation it was reduced to 2 juta and he is out now.

So yes, something may seem far-fetched but this is Indonesia and things do happen.

Your friend was lucky. The law is VERY clear concerning gambling (bermain judi). As soon as money and luck are involved the KUHP & the UU 7/1974 tentang Penertiban Perjudian are the statutes to read. There is no notion of repetitive or not. One time is enough to get you in a mess.

Article 303 (3) KUHP gives a pretty clear definition of what gambling is:

Yang disebut permainan judi adalah tiap-tiap permainan, di mana pada umumnya kemungkinan mendapat untung bergantung pada peruntungan belaka, juga karena pemainnya lebih terlatih atau lebih mahir. Di situ termasuk segala pertaruhan tentang keputusan perlombaan atau permainan lain-lainnya yang tidak diadakan antara mereka yang turut berlomba atau bermain, demikian juga segala pertaruhan lainnya.

Any game, where the possibility of profit is based on sheer luck, whatever the training & skills the gamblers may have acquired is included in the definition.

Gambling, at the difference of illegally working, includes a religious perspective because it is considered a devilish act in the Coran (perbuatan syaitan) and an unclean act (perbuatan yang najis). Not something to mess with when in Indonesia. As you see, we are a very far stretch from the OP's case.

[atlantis]

I have been invited to Kemhan and by TNI to speak at seminars as well as Polri Udara and get small compensation and free lunch or dinner.

How small was that? I have a fair opportunity to get some connections in TNI and am fed up to work for cheap for POLRI or Imigrasi and may consider switching work provider.

The cheapest so far are my local dinas pariwisata who gave me once an envelop with IDR 20.000 in it and a glass of aqua! Stay away from them if you get invited. I was considering filling a report to the police. This is below the Upah Minimum Propinsi Sulut!

[MadCat]

Good post Atlantis, however, I heard from my contacts at imigrasi that there is a distinct line between what's classified as work, and what isn't. In your case, giving a talk and receiving what amounts to your transportation fee and some free food and drink doesn't classify as work - that's more in the line of a one-off favor you're doing for someone. There is a fine line though, and it seems even various imigrasi offices can't quite get on the same page as to where that line is drawn, therefore it's always been my opinion that it's better to be safe than sorry - after all, not all of us have your contacts (you have to admit that it does probably put you in a somewhat privileged position )

As to being the usual nasty ass responding to the OP and greven's post, I'd do it again in the same fashion. As soon as things mention "paid gig" I'm thinking it involves more than just getting your transportation refunded, and as such you're coming close to that thin line; and it only takes one official who sees an opportunity for some money on the side to make things distinctly less than pleasant. You could say I'm overreacting or exaggerating, but again, it's better to be safe than sorry (and broke).

Edit:

Also, 20.000 and a bottle of aqua? That's uh... generous of them :P

[atlantis]

Good post Atlantis, however, I heard from my contacts at imigrasi that there is a distinct line between what's classified as work, and what isn't. In your case, giving a talk and receiving what amounts to your transportation fee and some free food and drink doesn't classify as work - that's more in the line of a one-off favor you're doing for someone. There is a fine line though, and it seems even various imigrasi offices can't quite get on the same page as to where that line is drawn,

There is no such line. To start with, Imigrasi has little to say in the matter of what constitutes work or not. This is the priviledge of nakertrans and this is where you should start, in order to define what is working and what is not working. Immigration's opinion on the matter is only what nakertrans tell them. At best, if your contact is part of the wasdakim section, he may be vaguely informed. At worst, if he is part of the statuskim, inforsakim or lalu lintas sections he talks about something he has no authority or clue about.

I can confirm you that nakertrans wouldn't raise an eyebrow for foreigners attending the OP's casting as long as it is exceptional as I described above.

therefore it's always been my opinion that it's better to be safe than sorry - after all, not all of us have your contacts (you have to admit that it does probably put you in a somewhat privileged position )

My "contacts" didn't help me when I had to face a penal trial in Indonesia and was facing the prospect of a jail sentence, nor I have ever asked them to help by the way. I know far too well what it would mean, and this is something I just can't mitigate with. If I would be priviledged, my case would simply have never exited the police station nor it would have been dealt with by the prosecutors. The fact that I had to go to court shows if needed that I am anything but priviledged... I was acquitted both by a district court and the supreme court and this is just because I did stricly nothing that the KUHP explicitely forbids.

In my 12 years here, there is one thing I have managed to be convinced of: friendship of people with uniform doesn't exist nor it is free. If you want to be in a mess, think otherwise and believe you are priviledged or protected.

To put it as it is: I've met several Kapoldas and a couple of Governor Sulut... but they don't give a flying toss of a foreigner like me. I am at best an exotic acquaintance, nothing more. I have no value for them nor I am willing to contribute to their wealth. End of the story.
To be honest, I can easily imagine a kombespol in manado saying to his anak buah: "hey! make sure that this funny bule who speaks torang pe bahasa brings his ass to the seminar so that bapak kapolda get a smile at hearing him speaking from time to time. What's his name again?" rather than "Would you please make sure that Bapak atlantis is invited to the seminar". See the difference?

To put the record straight: I definitively agree about "better being safe than sorry". I've just tried in my post to give indications of what is a risky business and what isn't.

it only takes one official who sees an opportunity for some money on the side to make things distinctly less than pleasant. You could say I'm overreacting or exaggerating, but again, it's better to be safe than sorry (and broke).

I don't think you are overreacting. However, you are maybe not familiar with the process of a deportation. You can say politely to this "one official" that he can take a hike because he would simply not be able to build a case. A deportation and/or a fine are legal sanctions and can not be decided arbitrarily by a random officer. Believe me, if it wasn't the case, there is a long time that I would have had my passport stamped and my ass kicked out, considering the number of pejabat I have remembered this simple notion. This is something I've explained to a few guys in the past in my kantor Imigrasi. I always remained polite, but I always said them that if they feel that I melanggar hukum, then they shouldn't hesitate: prosecute and try to deport me. We are gonna have good fun together (this was not said, but clearly thought).

Asking bribes is one thing. Having a real reason for you to bow is another thing. I admit it's not well understood by many PNS and I have (had) my fair share of strange look when I refuse(d) to bow to ridiculous expectations. However, after a while, they get used to it and understand that they have no power to coerce me. It pays to know the law.

[deviray50]

To put the record straight: I definitively agree about "better being safe than sorry". I've just tried in my post to give indications of what is a risky business and what isn't.

Thanks Atlantis for clearing that up. But for me, I think I would be cautious and not take up any offer like that. Thanks and take care.

Ray