Is this normal for Lion air pilots?

**atlantis** · 14-07-12, 07:50

Originally Posted by 747-8

Ngurah Rai's runway is 3000m which is about 600 meters shorter than Cengkareng but the approach from both ends of the runway is free from obstacles, over water which makes it a delight for pilots landing there especially in the mornings and later afternoons. However, during midday, the winds there can pickup and thus make the landings challenging.

Bandung is a challenge to land at due to the high terrain surrounding the city, thus the requirement to circle in a safe area whilst losing altitude, and breaking clear from the cloud base, before lining up with the runway.

I am curious about Manado, if you know about the runway and landing conditions. I fly Lion Air whenever I fly in from CGK or DPS and we always have hard landing with their new 737-900 ER. When I fly in from Singapore with Silkair I don't get that rough landing.

**jstar** · 14-07-12, 08:18

Originally Posted by atlantis

I am curious about Manado, if you know about the runway and landing conditions. I fly Lion Air whenever I fly in from CGK or DPS and we always have hard landing with their new 737-900 ER. When I fly in from Singapore with Silkair I don't get that rough landing.

And the SilkAir flight uses an...... Airbus !!!

(A319) So if could be a Boeing/Airbus thing after all...

**atlantis** · 14-07-12, 08:25

Dunno. However it's true that in my experience landing with airbuses are often smoother. When I fly Emirates to/from Europe I am always amazed at the smooth landing of the A380. I sometimes even can't say if the tyres have touched the tarmac or not. I can't say the same when they fly the boeing 777.

**El_Goretto** · 14-07-12, 09:01

Yeah I've got to agree on the A380. I flew it for the first time last month and I was really impressed with the landing. You really feel like you are in a massive aircraft.

**Raoul** · 14-07-12, 11:00

Interesting information. I always enjoyed flying before I came to Indonesia. But that changed quickly. Last year I was on a Lion Air flight from Pontianak to Jakarta which - mid flight - had to return to base due to technical error. The scary part was the long circling above Pontianak in cloudy conditions in the minutes before the announced 'emergency landing'. As there was no mention of the specific technical problem, passengers were left worried. A Catholic nun next to me started to do her prayers which added to my feeling of being totally out of control. I have trust issues since then, and developed a light fear of flying. I stick to Garuda and AirAsia and even skip a trip if these safer airlines do not serve my destination, like in the case of a work trip to Tarakan a few weeks ago (which my boss did not appreciate). My worries get worse when I read publications on the problems of overburdened ATC staff and pilots, such as a recent special in Tempo magazine on the poor standards of ATC in Jakarta. Also, stuff like this does not make me happy (from FAQ section Batavia Air website):

Why on some route always have empty seats although all the ticket sold out ?

Some cities in Indonesia have limited airport runway, it’s not long enough for new generation aircraft, so the aircraft need to reduce the weight in order to have safety landing. We reduce the weight by reducing the available seat to sell so its look like they are empty.

**Davita** · 14-07-12, 13:17

Most airline pilots will say....."Any landing you walk away from is a good one!"

**Davita** · 14-07-12, 14:16

Originally Posted by 747-8

Air transport category aircraft have a reference speed which they fly during the approach and landing (known as Vref). Flying at this speed during the approach gives adequate safety margins above the stall speed of the aircraft as well as a safe speed for which the aircraft will be able to land and stop before the end of the runway. If you fly significantly higher than your Vref speed, then you'll be using a lot of runway when you land. In extreme cases, this will result with over running the runway after you land. The Vref speed that you approach and land at, will depend on the landing weight of the aircraft. A heavier aircraft (due to lots of passengers and cargo on board) will have a higher Vref and therefore will require more runway (and more braking power) when landing.

Being able to achieve and land at your Vref speed will mean that the aircraft will be able to land and stop safely well before the end of the runway. This calculation has been done well before the airline has decided to fly the route flown and land at that particular airport's runway. So runway overruns are usually caused by poor flight management of the pilot where for some reason, the target speed for landing (Vref) has not been able to be achieved.

Air traffic control will sometimes impose speed controls on aircraft when they approach the airport, especially at the busier airports like Bali, CGK, Surabaya and Makassar. But once they're on final approach, then what determines the speed at which an aircraft lands is its Vref speed and ATC has no say in this speed.

A very good explanation 747-8 and easy to understand.
I confess, my flying experience, other than in back, retired with me in 1990...and that was on the older B747-300.
However, my recollection was Vref was approach speed which was 1.3 VSO plus 50% of forecast wind gusts....and landing speed was achieving VAT at the flare.
Has that changed or did you mean to 'keep it simple' for non-pilot member readers?

btw fwiw...I've witnessed many auto-lands and they all landed very firmly.

If it is a smooth landing it is usually done by the First Officer, especially female F/Os.

**kingwilly** · 14-07-12, 18:14

Originally Posted by Davita

Most airline pilots will say....."Any landing you walk away from is a good one!"

Mostly, aviation has moved forward in the last 50 or so years and survival is not really considered a lucky break any more, you might even find that most pilots except to land safely these days, believe it or not.

**Davita** · 14-07-12, 18:55

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Mostly, aviation has moved forward in the last 50 or so years and survival is not really considered a lucky break any more, you might even find that most pilots except to land safely these days, believe it or not.

ha! ha! You're probably right KW...... it was a saying that my Flight Instructor used to assure me ......but that was over 50 years ago!

However...I believe 'these days' that most pilots do not make safe landings an 'exception', believe it or not.