Is this normal for Lion air pilots?

**747-8** · 21-07-12, 21:51

Originally Posted by Davita

Just arrived Bali on Lion a couple of days ago. I sat in row 3F so had a good view. I saw the Captain looked mature and not U/T....didn't see the F/O and no announcement so I don't know who did the T/O or LDG.

One way to know who's doing the landing is to listen to the announcement just before landing for the "flight attendants to be seated" or "flight attendants landing position". It's usually the PNF who makes this announcement so the other pilot will be the handling pilot. This is pretty much is standard procedure for the major local airlines here.

BTW, Davita, if it was Wednesday 18th that you arrived in Bali, then I also flew in to Bali that day; once in the morning and once in the afternoon. It was raining hard in the morning when we arrived and only just got visual on RWY 09 just before missed approach point .. the preceding landing traffic did a missed approach and the traffic behind us had two attempts at landing before diverting to Surabaya. Quite unseasonal weather for this time of the year as it's already the dry season.

**redsnapr** · 21-07-12, 22:14

From the time I worked in a flight operations department, I remember that particular airline's operational procedures called for the use of "positive" touch downs at landing strips that were not grooved and/or showed particularly strong downpours or crosswinds/downdrafts. The harder than normal landing would assure the wheels to brake the water accumulation on the landing strip surface and avoid the airplane from hydroplaning (skidding).

I'd much rather have the uncomfortable positive landing than experiencing a runway excursion with the potential breakage of the airplane's structural integrity and consequential fire.

**Davita** · 21-07-12, 22:18

Thanks 747-8 for that info on announcements.
When I was in the business it was the Pilot doing the usual alternate TO and LDG that made the in-flight announcement about weather conditions and general timings and would introduce themselves. The Cabin crew warnings were all done by the Flight Engineer. This was 747-200/300.
I recall embarressing myself by saying "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are now flying over the South China...I meant to say "Sea' but my mind wandered and I said "the South China Morning Post" which is a Hong Kong newspaper. Not cool.
Lion Air doesn't even say who they are...I heard , more of less a grunt, which I took as a cabin crew "be seated" warning.

You are correct....we heard about the rain on Wednesday but it had cleared when we landed at around 3:30pm; however, the wind was swirling...hope you were not too scared!!!

I usually flew into Cat 3C airports so autoland was available. Bali is what...... Cat 1...is that like 600ft visual MAP?

redsnapr comments about procedure are the same as I recall....plunk it down firmly and get rid of the lift with auto-speedbrake, triggered by weight-switches on the undercarriage, or a x-wind will surely lift a wing...also, he is right in that the wheels have to break the film of water and reach the concrete. If not..... the anti-skid will operate and release the brakes.

**747-8** · 23-07-12, 12:25

Originally Posted by Davita

You are correct....we heard about the rain on Wednesday but it had cleared when we landed at around 3:30pm; however, the wind was swirling...hope you were not too scared!!!

hehe .. I did the second landing in to DPS that day; the wind was 120/20 knots for runway 09, which gave us a cross-wind component of 10 knots. Managed to get her down nicely, I thought; the flight attendants didn't complain afterwards so that's a good sign. They're the ones to cop it from the passengers if we land hard, and they will sure tell us about it. haha ..

Originally Posted by Davita

I usually flew into Cat 3C airports so autoland was available. Bali is what...... Cat 1...is that like 600ft visual MAP?

Only the major airports in Indonesia have ILS and they're all CAT 1. Bali only has an ILS on RWY 27 (the approach coming from Benoa). RWY 09 (approaching from Kuta) only has a VOR/DME approach with MDH at 459 ft and missed approach point at 2 miles out.

**747-8** · 23-07-12, 12:30

Originally Posted by redsnapr

I'd much rather have the uncomfortable positive landing than experiencing a runway excursion with the potential breakage of the airplane's structural integrity and consequential fire.

Many pilots will agree on that. A runway excursion is not a good career move here, nor anywhere else in the world .. lol.

**Davita** · 23-07-12, 16:45

Originally Posted by 747-8

hehe .. I did the second landing in to DPS that day; the wind was 120/20 knots for runway 09, which gave us a cross-wind component of 10 knots. Managed to get her down nicely, I thought; the flight attendants didn't complain afterwards so that's a good sign. They're the ones to cop it from the passengers if we land hard, and they will sure tell us about it. haha ..

Only the major airports in Indonesia have ILS and they're all CAT 1. Bali only has an ILS on RWY 27 (the approach coming from Benoa). RWY 09 (approaching from Kuta) only has a VOR/DME approach with MDH at 459 ft and missed approach point at 2 miles out.

10k across calls for fearless crabbing, kicking straight and a sure touchdown to prevent a wing from lifting. Trying to float to the concrete is not advised in those conditions......so well done!

I'd forgotten that VOR/DME was still used, that technology comes from WW2...is the MDH calculated from a radio altimeter or barometric?

Lucky there is little fog in Indonesia but Jakarta's pollution resembles fog. In my time our arrivals to Jakarta were all at night so the lights shone pretty nicely and there wasn't so much traffic as there is today.
My first few flights was before Soekarno-Hatta was built. We landed at Halim which resembled a country bumpkin airfield. They didn't even have ground services for a B707 and we had to start one engine from a compressed air bottle and x-bleed to start the others.

Now Soekarno-Hatta is looking old and jaded and needs a remodel excepting terminal 3, which we left from last Wednesday.

**Ratna** · 27-07-12, 21:11

Originally Posted by jahcares

I dont know if any of you have travelled and experienced this.I have been on different flights throughout the world but i have never seen any pilot landing the way Lion air pilots land their flights.Its really scary and very sudden.They apply the brakes too sudden and the stopping isnt smooth.Is this normal? Has anyone experienced that also? I want people of like mind to contribute and see how this can be addressed.Thanks

yeah, they land the plane in a rough way (i fly with Sriwijaya and the landing is smooth....), i feel scare, but at least am still alive....

**sergei** · 27-07-12, 23:48

I love all the technical jargon in this thread...

**Davita** · 28-07-12, 15:15

Arrived on Lion Air yesterday....nice smooth T.O. and Landing. Noticed the 2 bar First Officer was bule but not sure who did the landing.
We disembarked at Terminal 3. My wife knew there is a problem with taxis at Terminal 3, so we ordered the golden bird inside the from inside...cost to Permata Hijau was Rp170,000 for a nice ride in an Avanza.