Reply With QuoteYou keep avoiding the issue, Ricky, again.
I'd be surprised if they never screamed something like "membela umat Muslim yang tertindas".Originally Posted by kingwilly
You keep avoiding the issue, Ricky, again.
Yawn.
Hmmmm...
Indonesian Muslims protest Obama's planned visit
Muslims staged rallies across Indonesia on Sunday to protest U.S. President Barack Obama's planned visit to the southeast Asian nation this week.
The protests -- organized by Muslim group Hizbut Tahrir -- included women and children.
"We don't see the differences between Obama and Bush, they both oppress Muslims, they both have blood on their hands," said Ismail Yusanto, a spokesman for the Muslim group in Indonesia.
Now lets look at 7 myths (lies) that are used to be "politically correct" when talking about Islam. Is Islam the religion of peace?
1. The Qur’an only calls for jihad against invaders threatening islam.
Surah 9:29 – Fight (whom? Invaders? No) those who believe not in Allah [so this is based on fighting people based on what they believe] nor the last Day, nor hold that forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book (that’s Jews and Christians), until they pay the JUZYAH with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Does that sound like it has ANYTHING to do with fighting invaders? No. You know why? Because it has nothing to do with fighting invaders. It’s a command to fight unbelievers. When this was first ‘revealed,’ Muslims began their long tradition of offensive jihad – fighting to subjugate all non-Muslims.
2. After (Mohammad) died, history saw the first real interfaith era. “For hundreds of years the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and atheists lived together, debated God and debated religion.”
According to Muslim sources, after Mohammad died, Abu Bakr went on a killing spree against all the people who tried to leave Islam because they only became Muslims in the first place to avoid getting slaughtered by Mohammad.
Umar took over after Abu Bakr and he forced Christians to sign an agreement, The Pact of Umar, saying they wouldn’t build churches, repair damaged churches, sing loudly in their churches, or wear crosses. They had to give up their seats for Muslims. They had to feed Muslims. And they had to let Muslims sleep in their churches. And if Christians ever violated any of those rules, the penalty was death.
Over the next 14 centuries over 270 million people were slaughtered in the name of Islamic jihad – Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, everyone who refused to become Muslims.
3. “And Mohammad said that we should all be tolerant of each other’s’ religion.”
Can anyone from show where Mohammad said ‘we should all be tolerant of each other’s religions? No, because it never happened. However, Mohammed did say:
Qur’an 9:29 – Fight those who believe not in allah.
Qur’an 9:123 – O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and them find in you hardness.
Qur’an 38:29 – “Mohammad is the messenger of allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.
Sahih Muslim 33 – “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god by allah.”
Qur’an 5:51 – O you who believe do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are the friends of each other.
Sahil Muslim 4366 – I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.
4. Believers of Islam “Are just like everyone else.
So what does Islam teach about Muslims?
Qur’an 3:110 – You are the best peoples ever raised up for mankind.“Muslims are the best people in the world.
How about Jews and Christians?
Surah 98:6 – Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur’an and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun (pagans) will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of creatures. Apparantly we are the worst of creatures.
5. Does the Qur’an teach the practice of TAKIYYA – lying to non-Muslims to advance and protect Islam?
Qur’an 3:28 – Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Who so doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that you but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security.
According to this verse, which uses a form of the word TAKIYYA, meaning concealment, in order to guard yourself. Muslims are not allowed to be friends with non-Muslims, unless they are outnumbered and they feel like they’re in danger from a stronger adversary. That is when Muslims are allowed to pretend to be friendly.
One of Islam’s greatest scholars Ibn Kathir comments, Abu Darda – “We smile in the face of some people, although our hearts curse them.”
Al Hasan – “TAKIYYA is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.”
6. Dictators and radicles use a perverted version of Islam and manipulate their followers with a ‘holy’ hated.
(Surah) Qur’an 5:33 – The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned.
Here we have various penalties for making mischief in a Muslim land depending on the severity of the offense. Do Muslim leaders need to pervert Islam in order to fuel hatred? No, They just need the Qur’an.
7. The Qur’an is very, very clear that in the eyes of (the Islamic) god, men and women have equal rights and equal responsibilities.
Surah 4:32 says that men can marry up to four women
Do women have the right to marry up to four men? No.
Surah 4:24 says that Muslim men can have sex with their female captives and slave girls.
Do women get to have sex with their male captives and slave boys? No.
Surah 4:34 says that men can beat their wives into submission.
Do women get to beat their husbands into submission? No.
So do men and women have equal rights and responsibilities in the Qur’an? No.
Poso, Sulawesi Tengah. It's obvious that it was a purely christian oppression. Ask Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva the three otak pelaku kerusuhan poso...
Ambon, Maluku also. Laskar Jihad weren't into tourism KW and were obviously answering to another christian oppression. They claimed that they were here for the defence of fellow Muslims and to fight separatism.
In both place, the oppression was so obvious that police and the military didn't do much to stop the massacre of the christian oppressors.
Torang samua basudara
Kami harus melakukan sesuai dengan persyaratan dan peraturan yang berlaku untuk Indonesia lebih baik.
Please, only moderator related questions (and fun stuff) by PM. Kindly post law related questions to the public forum so that answers can help the whole community.
This material sounds very familiar, especially since it refers to the word Takiyya.
While I fully recognize that there's no shortage of idiotic Muslims, this copy-and-paste piece sounds very close to garden variety Islamic bashing by Islamophobes. I can quote many passages from the Bible and the Torah that are quite offensive by modern standards, but I'm not going down that route again, at least not this time. The Qur'an is not made up solely of violent and intolerant passages, nor the Bible, nor the Torah. When you paint Islam as an inherently evil thing, then you basically paint Muslims as inherently evil as well. I do not think it's acceptable.
The guy previously known as Injun.
Where was evil ever mentioned? Yes the Bible and Torah have passages that might be considered offensive but its acceptable to quote those? It wouldn't bother me at all if you wanted to quote anything you find offensive and I guarantee it wouldn't set off a mob of Christians to go out and beat non-beleivers or burn down a mosque.
I considered not replying to the post by Jave because I felt that the moderators would surely remove it. After all, it's filled not just with critique of Islam but conspiracy theory, canards and elements of the Robert Spencer "I don't have a degree in Islamic Theology but I'll pontificate about Islam bashing over the Internet" school of Islamic Theology. Unfortunately, it seems that I have little choice but to debunk this hateful diatribe.
"Myth" 1. Since you possibly don't know Arabic, it might be useful for you to read exactly what is written to better understand what was said. After all, you're using a cherry picked translation you got on the Internet of all places, so clearly it must be true! I'll transliterate the aya (verse) for you so you can see where you're "off".
Qātilū al-ladhīna lā yu'uminūna bil-lahi wa lā bil-yawmi al-'Ākhiri wa lā yuĥarrimūna mā harrama Al-lahu wa Rasūluhu wa lā yadīnūna dīna al-Ĥaqqi mina al-ladhīna 'utū Al-Kitāba hattá yu`tū al-jizyata `an yadin wa hum sāghirūna
You know that the word "kafir" and variants like the plural "kuffar" mean disbelievers, right? Find that in this aya. Can't find it? Probably because it isn't there. If you had bothered to read (and let's be honest here, you've only gleaned from the Internet and never actually read it) the Qur'an you might be aware that the previous aya refers to the mushrikeen, Meccan polytheists. You might also be aware that some of the Jewish tribes in Arabia aligned themselves with the mushrikeen and were fighting/killing/persecuting the Muslims. Hence, the Muslims (who were being persecuted, not the other way around) were commanded to fight for their survival and impose a tax (heavens no!) on the Ahl al-Kitab (Jews, Christians) who sided with the polytheists.
Saying that this verse is tantamount to eternal war on non-believers is like saying this verse from the Old Testament is clearly a message that Allah (subhana wa t'ala) commanded death to gentiles for all time.
1 Samuel 15:3 "And slay the Amalekites every man, woman, child (suckling infant in some versions!) and beast of burden."
Does this say "kill all disbelievers for all time"? No? Ditto for al-Qur'an. If you're not a Meccan polytheist you have nothing to worry about.
I'd also like to add that this particular "myth" is conspiracy theory based on the canard that Islam is a religion spread by the sword and that we all secretly desire to conquer the world. If you had said that "da Joos control all media, finance and world governments!!!111!111!!1", this board would have lit up with people telling you that you were a petty anti-Semite. It should be ditto for this nonsense.
"Myth" 2. Islam's interfaith relations have never been perfect, and that seems to be the case for most (possibly all) religions. But let's get to the meat of your feeble claim. You reference the famous "Pact of Umar", let's see where commenting on this is a poor choice based on Internet "scholarship".
First, the obvious. The Pact of Umar was supposedly penned not by a prophet, but by a man. Indeed, Umar was the caliph and he was "commander of the faithful". Does this mean that his words and actions are to be followed by Muslims for all time as an infallible "Pope of Islam"? No, he wasn't a prophet. Anything he may have written in the Middle Ages was meant to be used... in the Middle Ages. However, there's an even bigger problem with your argument.
The Pact of Umar is considered a likely forgery. I want you to read another legal document from near the same time period. It's called "The Code of Justinian" and it reads in part similarly to the Pact of Umar. Now, I want you to tell us that it's realistic to believe that Orthodox Christianity still follows the Code of Justinian. No? Wait wait, I thought that we were arguing here that Muslims were still bound by the laws of a dead Muslim state?!
If Muslims follow the Pact of Umar (which is not considered a valid legal document by ANY of the jurists, FYI), Christians must follow the Code of Justinian by your logic. Only in the realm of online Muslim bashing is this considered a real thing adhered to by Muslims.
"Myth" 3 Oh? More ayat that aren't even close to how they read in the Qur'an or hadith severely misquoted? I welcome all other readers to look up what you wrote to see that so very much was omitted. The first three are more of the above problem I gave you. The hadith is about struggle. Let's skip down to the bit about "not taking Christians and Jews as friends"...
Is the word "friends" used? No, but the word 'awliya is there. It means "protectors". Place yourself in the shoes of the early Muslims who were being assaulted and attacked by polytheists and Jews of the Arabian Peninsula. Would YOU take the people killing you as protectors? There's your answer.
"Myth" 4 It says that Allah (subhana wa t'ala) created this Ummah (nation) to the best in the world, comprised of all peoples. The term "Ummah" is not at all dissimilar from the Christian concept of "Church" being the body of believers. It is created to be universal, filled with people of all kinds. Many of the earliest Muslims, a large number of Sahaba (companions) were NOT ARABS. Find me the "black Apostle" of Jesus (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) and I'll think you're on to something.
Christians and Jews, if you had bothered to read the Qur'an, are also lauded. It says no less than three frickin' times that they will be judged and can go to heaven. If they disbelieve in Allah (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) they will go to hell. Surprised? You should revisit the New Testament if you think that this is particularly harsh/evil or unusual.
In Islam, men are judged based on their actions. You don't get a "get out of hell" free card if you do more evil than good. Indeed, Allah says "he who has seen an atom's weight of good shall see it on the Last Day and he who has seen an atom's weight of evil shall also see it." Even some people who are not Jews, Muslims and Christians may go to heaven.
"Myth" 5. Oh boy. Taqiyya. Do a google search on this and you'll find loads of articles by kuffar who can't actually read a lick of Arabic who will pontificate about this supposedly widespread practice. Jave, you know that "soul rag" Muslim men wear on their heads sometimes? The skullcap? Yeah, that's called a taqiyya (sometimes by an African name, kufi, in America). It means covering.
Is taqiyya a form of Islamic dissimulation? In Shi'a Islam, yes. Not a single Sunni jurist has accepted it because it is considered preferable to die a martyr than to hide your Islamic religion. So, it's possible that 10% of Muslims globally adhere to a belief that this form of dissimulation is acceptable. Is it bad? Well, let's see. The concept behind it is to hide your religion if people are going to KILL YOU. Plenty of famous people have argued for this very same concept who were definitely not Muslim.
Take Moses Maimonides, probably the most famous Jewish scholar of all time. He was a crypto-Jew, he had to be. He argued in favor of crypto-Judaism to preserve Jewish life. Is Maimonides guilty of "taqiyya"? Don't be silly.
But here's what it really gets interesting: the reason potted plants think this is a "real thing" is because they believe it's part of an Islamic conspiracy! You see, no Muslim is actually a good Muslim in their minds and if any of us sound reasonable or friendly it's because we are secretly trying to deceive you and take over the world. This is plain conspiracy theory.
If you had posted that there is a secret Jewish agenda to deceive gentiles and purposely work in collusion to overthrow them (as many anti-Semitic canards go), you would be banned from this forum. This is EXACTLY the same thing.
"Myth" 6. Oh, the medieval punishments argument. Kay.
Allah (subhana wa t'ala) definitely doesn't say "murdered", though it's nice of you to speak for Him. What He does argue for is a death penalty for rapists and murderers. I'm pro death penalty. I'm completely in favor of beheading as a method of execution as it's completely humane and oft recommended. You die very quickly. If you're not pro death penalty, ok, I can see a compelling moral argument against a death penalty by some people.
There is no restitution or rehabilitation for those guilty of such crimes. Putting them to death is perfectly sound. I'd like to add that you're not pontificating about such penalties being given in halakha (Jewish law). Why not? Oh... that's right... that's a religion you are "used to".
Continued...
"Myth" 7. The rights of women in Islam, eh?
Women and men are fundamentally different. We each have different rules and regulations that you've cherry picked for your own pleasure, but let's look a little more deeply at the issue. Women and men have roles in Islam, it's true. Men are expected to provide for a family completely. For example, a woman is allowed to keep 100% of what she earns in a Muslim household and the man cannot touch it. Before you say "women can't work!", bullcrap. Women have always been allowed to work in the Muslim society. Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam)'s first wife was his employer. That's right, Khadija owned the merchant business, not the other way around. So it's always been clear that women can and DO work in Islamic societies.
We also give her a mahr (bride price) paid not to her family but directly to her. Why? An insurance policy. In traditional societies, men worked and women raised the family. If the husband died, she may be destitute. The mahr exists as something of liquidity she can sell to support herself.
We also have ALWAYS given WOMEN the right to a divorce. If you do divorce your wife, you're expected to house her in separate accommodations and give her a fair settlement.
We also allowed women to VOTE in the ELECTION of the first caliph, Abu Bakr (yes, he really was chosen by consensus).
Allah (subhana wa t'ala) also specifically forbade infanticide of little girls, common among the Arabs at the time. He also gave them an inheritance when before they had ZERO.
Yep, men are allowed to take four wives. Traditionally, men are ones who went out to work, so it's natural that men would support multiple wives. Allah (subhana wa t'ala) also specifically recommends that you DON'T do it unless you can love all of them equally.
Men and women have distinct dress codes too. Shocking, I know. Women are expected to cover their heads, men are expected to grow beards. Women can wear gold, men cannot. etc etc. It's almost as if we had the exact same sort of ritual observances as every other frickin' religion on Earth...
Oh, and we can't beat our wives. That's BS.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks