Reply With QuoteI'm pretty certain he was referring to himself and his marriage, he did say "my marriage" and "myself", after all.
Maybe you're right, Glenn, but reading back over what he wrote, I guess it's just the word "degrade" that gets me. His post seems to imply that checking the box for any religion would be degrading for me and my marriage, since I'm not religious, but maybe he meant that only for people who are actually religious and would be faking a switch to marry.
I'm pretty certain he was referring to himself and his marriage, he did say "my marriage" and "myself", after all.
I apologize if I came across as insensitive or judgmental. You are right when you say that there are no real options for atheists, at some point they all have to 'check the box'. My point was, if that's all it is to you, then no problem, check any box that's convenient at the time.Originally Posted by greves
However, from experience, I've noticed that different boxes/religions come with different strings attached. Levels of faking and bending that you'll be expected to do vary. In some situations you might be pushed to do uncomfortable things based on your choice of the box/religion (No, I am not just talking about the snip here.)
The word 'degrade' (and I regret it now) was used when thinking of a certain expat friend that had to make regular excuses as to why he cannot come to the mosque and whether he still drinks beer. His wife was fine with it, but some neighbors and the in-laws were quite persistent. That was a string attached to his choice of the box. I thought it quite sad that a fully grown man should have to justify and hide himself so.
Of course, this all depends primarily on the spouse and in-laws. Only you know what expectations, in any, might be placed on you by the in-laws and neighbors.
The point that I wanted to make, make sure that you are fully aware what strings are attached before you choose. Things get much more sensitive when there are children involved. Some spouses become more religious as they age.
Personally, I was brought up in a Catholic country, my family partly Catholic. I could have presented myself as such to my in-laws and it would have saved us a lot of trouble. But then I would also have to attend Mass, pretend to join prayers and communion I did not believe in, as well as have my child educated as a Catholic. As it happens, I ticked a Budhist box and that also makes me a hypocrite, you are right about that. However, that hypocrisy only extends to a tick in the box. In everyday life my in-laws and neighbors have no expectations placed on me nor my daughter. I am free from having to keep any appearances. That is a huge difference psychologically.
If I have offended anyone by my previous post, I apologize to them as well. I spoke of my personal opinion about my marriage. I have also mentioned that most people just see it as a bureaucratic nuisance and that's fine for them. We all face complex situations and decisions living abroad and I didn't mean to judge anyone based on theirs.
Last edited by Niko Z.; 15-06-12 at 11:26.
Guess in any relationship you need to compromise (put water in your wine, how biblical). Not only on religion, right? So in that aspect you are preaching to the choir (biblical again). Life would be pretty boring if the partners would be identical to ourselves.
But that relationship also forces one to take his/her environment and beloved ones into account, we are not living in a bubble (although an ex-member here would disagree). I do think there are different (and less shocking) options to convey a message though (like: I am baptized Catholic but don't want to actively participate so please don't count on me every Sunday).
Having your kid/baby baptized is another example; they have no choice so the parents decide. Although I personally did not like it, I agreed simply because of keeping the peace, the respect for traditions and to make sure the child would not stick out as a sore thumb later (what? you are not doing your communion? why not?).
Last edited by jstar; 15-06-12 at 11:49.
Our daughter is not baptized. My wife and I made this decision together, as we both felt that should be her choice when she is old enough to choose. I agree that she will definitely stick out in the crowd later, but not 'as a sore thumb', I hope.
I believe that in this case our peace of mind is more important than her family's. It's our child after all. That is exactly why I marked myself as different right from the start. Had I ticked myself as Catholic, we would have to 'get with the program', as we would both be nominally Catholic. This way we have a justification for raising our daughter differently, according to our beliefs (not in a biblical senseAlthough I personally did not like it, I agreed simply because of keeping the peace, the respect for traditions and to make sure the child would not stick out as a sore thumb later (what? you are not doing your communion? why not?).
I agree that compromises are needed in any relationship, but my wife and I have convergent views about religion and spirituality. What this is about is not having her family nor some church dictate how we are going to raise our child. It's our kid, our decision, our responsibility.
By the time she is old enough to understand that question she will be able to come up with her own answer. And if she decides to do her communion, that's just fine.(what? you are not doing your communion? why not?).
Last edited by Niko Z.; 15-06-12 at 12:35. Reason: ah.. spelling...
Back to the point of my OP, maybe I don't understand this correctly but, is it possible to marry at the KUA, and then check "Buddhist" when I apply for my ITAS?
Moderation note: A number of posts that were unrelated to the original posters questions have been deleted from this thread.
That thing of Joy's is a beauty forever.
... with apologies to John Keats
I'll take a stab at this, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I am wrong.I believe that technically speaking, apostasy invalidates a Muslim marriage, however that wouldn't matter because at the time of your 'apostasy' you would already have a civil marriage document in hand. Civil marriage certificate, AFAIK, wouldn't be invalidated by one spouse changing faith, and that is the document that you need to get all kinds of permits (immigration, etc.)However, even if you don't get any hassle from immigration officers due to discrepancy, it might be better to stay on their good side and don't present them with any sticky points if you mean to get a KITAP (long-term residency permit). Evaluation from you local Immigration Office will play a part in that process.But even if you could make it work, I am not really sure what benefit you hope to get out of this idea.
As Niko says, if you are married at the KUA office then leave Islam your marriage is considered invalid. I may check Buddhist or Confucious when I'm opening a new bank account or filing out a form for fun, but always check the Islam box when doing anything with the government in regards to KITAP / KITAS etc.... as they tend to take the whole religion thing a bit serious.
it even could be printed on KTP for example muslim even though at first you're atheist without any convert.
Anything you could do here. As long as you've $$ and consider to give extra tips. LOL
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