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Ahok jailed - Indonesia, quo vadis?

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  • Ahok jailed - Indonesia, quo vadis?

    I've lived in Indonesia for ten years and have very seriously considered applying for citizenship. I just love the place and the people. Even though I've been working in other countries for the past three years, I always seem to think about going back 'one day'. I still think of it as my family's home. However, reading stuff like this makes me feel very anxious, and quite relieved I haven't taken the plunge.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-in...-idUSKBN1842GE
    Take my advice, I don't need it.

  • #2
    What a sad joke of a country and weak government , I wonder what justice we would get in the courts ? ah sorry I forgot its not a democracy as we know it .

    Sorry for Ahok.

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    • #3
      Hi Niko/Scouser, It is a very debatable topic as we all have our own views which we are certain is the right and unprejudiced view including me. Sorry to say but what I understand, If a person holds a senior government position like governor and in uniform, he needs to abide with certain code and ethics and should not be biased in his/her public talks/forum related to culture, race, religion, color, etc; because such opinions may offence the community; these comments are his/her personal views and should be done in private.

      Impact of the comments made is that after that day till today the community has been divided, which is very clear and can be easily seen. The damage is already done. Rallies, Pro & Against, supporters, etc. are out there. We may call it is due to Jakarta election or politically misused just to change the focus, but the point is why a governor on his official trip needs to make a comment on a religion stating details about it, that too about a religion to which he does not belongs too.

      One good thing is that people have not taken law in their own hands and all the rallies and processions were peaceful, even when there was a lot of fear of something going wrong, it was safe. Now since the court had given its verdict, we need to respect it, just because it is not as per our wish, we can say "RIP Justice", there is not justice in the country, or death of justice, etc. If you watch Indonesian TV channel, I am sure the family of "Jessica" in Mirna murder case would have also felt there is no justice or "RIP Justice", etc. So, If we are the best judge why not take the position and give justice to all or let the people designated to provide justice weighing the facts do their work.

      I support Ahok for the good work he has done for Jakarta, tuning the government staff for better community service, his corruption-free image, for his decisions, etc but I won't support him being biased.

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      • #4
        The justice system here is corrupt as Im sure you are aware , so sadly this is just another example .

        I have lived in many "tinpot" dictatorships over the years , iv seen these kangaroo courts in action of course , but this place is supposed to be democratic.?

        Unfortunately what I have seen here over the years is a pernicious creeping of radicalism , which it now seems to affect court decisions , let the people enjoy sharia law in jakarta , im happy I dont live there.

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        • #5
          KenGmail If you take a look at the actual video, Ahok was simply reassuring the people he will deliver on the planned program regardless of whether they voted for him or not. There was a minor one-sentence byline commenting on (mis)use of Islam for political purposes. Kind of ironic really that he went to jail for it. Certainly stupid for a politician in Indonesian context to state the obvious in that regard, but hardly worth two years of imprisonment. The whole point of that speech was that he wouldn't be biased against people and the community that wouldn't vote for him, for reasons personal or otherwise, and would still deliver on a specific program to help them.

          Regarding divisions that were exposed, those could hardly be blamed on a single person, but there were quite a few political and media actors that have contributed much more to the situation.

          On a personal level, I was quite sad to see my Facebook feed suddenly become clogged with vitriol against Christianity and non-Muslims in government. Quite a few of the posters were my friends. I've been guest at their homes and I know them to be good people who have the capacity to be swayed in a more tolerant or more prejudiced direction based on the general signals they get from the society at large. In this context, government courting of groups with violent tendencies such as FPI is sending all the wrong signals.

          Media and government signaling can easily contribute to or alleviate a mass psychosis. It has happened in Indonesia before, and it has happened in Balkans when I was growing up. The consequences can be very real when things get out of hand, and this is what I am concerned about.
          Take my advice, I don't need it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
            I've lived in Indonesia for ten years and have very seriously considered applying for citizenship. I just love the place and the people ... However, reading stuff like this makes me feel very anxious, and quite relieved I haven't taken the plunge.

            I understand your feeling and agree that what happened is very sad . Although I don't think in applying for Indonesian citizenship , I do think in continue living in Indonesia because I think that I : probably will never be in a situation like that , my relationship with the Indonesians I know/depend on is still good , ...

            In other words , I hope my life in Indonesia will not be relevantly affected by facts like that . I am sad for other facts around the world too , even in my own country and in developed/rich countries (Syria , Iraqi , Afghanistan , Palestine , North Korea , Venezuela , human greed for : money , power , non-essential things , global warming , 1% of the richest people owning the same as the other 99% , ...) .

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
              There was a minor one-sentence byline commenting on (mis)use of Islam for political purposes. Kind of ironic really that he went to jail for it. Certainly stupid for a politician in Indonesian context to state the obvious in that regard, but hardly worth two years of imprisonment.
              Niko, What you are regarding as (mis)use of Islam for political purpose, is actually what the Islamic Holy book teaches. It is part of the religion to select a leader from their own religion. Meaning it is preaching of Islam, not crafted by politicians. Islamic religious leaders, Imam, etc preach as per what is there in the Holy book. Now, whether the Holy book needs to be re-translated as understood by a non-believer? Or need to be altered?? By quoting what Ahok quoted, he is directly pointing to the Islamic religious leaders, Imam, etc preaching wrong Islam to people, also very specifically challenging Muslims of their understanding of their own religion by quoting the phrases he quoted. That was not expected from him nor acceptable. He could have said in more generic way without quoting the phrases and pointing to any religion, which would have been more acceptable.

              Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
              Regarding divisions that were exposed, those could hardly be blamed on a single person, but there were quite a few political and media actors that have contributed much more to the situation.
              There is a trigger point for everything and it can be a single person too.

              Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
              On a personal level, I was quite sad to see my Facebook feed suddenly become clogged with vitriol against Christianity and non-Muslims in government. Quite a few of the posters were my friends. I've been guest at their homes and I know them to be good people who have the capacity to be swayed in a more tolerant or more prejudiced direction based on the general signals they get from the society at large. In this context, government courting of groups with violent tendencies such as FPI is sending all the wrong signals.
              Yes, It is sad when good capable people, who are not at mistake are biased and held hostage of such a movement. I too feel sorry for it. From what I know government is very capable and can very well take care of FPI or any such groups. This movement was bigger than just FPI.

              Originally posted by Niko Z. View Post
              Media and government signaling can easily contribute to or alleviate a mass psychosis. It has happened in Indonesia before, and it has happened in Balkans when I was growing up. The consequences can be very real when things get out of hand, and this is what I am concerned about.
              Sorry to know about what happened in Balkans. I am aware it has happened in Indonesia before and that is the reason I don't want such sensitive topics to be picked up for commenting by public figure or anyone publically, because it will unnecessarily create public unrest and change the focus from real issues in the country and abroad.

              I am Expat too and I pray for love & peace in Indonesia and the world.

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              • #8
                I support Ahok for the good work he has done for Jakarta
                hi

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                • #9
                  If I was writing in the 1930's , the most toxic form of religion was Catholicism .. .and still runs second ...given its direct alliance with the Nazis, crusades, inquisitions, trial of Galileo ,paedophilia,
                  AIDS is bad but not as bad as condoms are bad leading to deaths of millions of Africans, no divorce in Ireland leading to the misery of thousands of women living in inescapable domestic abuse.
                  Now for the newcomer- ISLAM in its first flush and in serious need of calming down ... a con job from a warlord with a 9 yo wife. ..a book written again based on archangel Gabriel (much of it plagiarised) in times when they thought the sun went around the Earth. When they don't get their own way they resort to violence or sending people to jail for expressing an opinion. Most of them with the IQ of pig and the gullibility of a sheep. Having never read anything in Arabic nor a science book (Astronomy / Astrophysics) they are perfectly willing to embrace technology like engines, smartphones etc .. The trashy ancient book makes very bold claims for itself - yet extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ...none of which is forthcoming ... Imagine the arrogance
                  of a person claiming the self-indulgence that his imaginary friend in the sky cares about what he eats, when he eats, whom he sleeps with etc .. given the nearest star to ours is 4,27 light years away .. the Universe doesn't know we are here and doesn’t care ... we don’t call a 7 yo child a communist or a socialist or a republican or democrat ... but we are happy to call them a muslim or a Christian ... wow ! .... I worked out that Santa Clause wasn't true when I was 5 years old ..Its time we grew up out this religious stuff you know ... There is no "purpose" to the universe so its up to you to make the most of it while you are here ... not relying on a promised afterlife for which there is no evidence and the child abuse you inflict upon the young to deny them of such basic facts and truth ....I refer to how well ISLAM is going in Iraq Iran Somalia Yemen Libya Afghanistan Java Saudi (without oil) Syria Nigeria Egypt Banda Aceh etc ..

                  There have been thousands of "gods" during the history of man .. the faithful (belief in something without evidence) just cant let go of the last one to arrive at the true figure ... 0 zero ... 0 .... grow up ... emancipate yourself from stupidity and allow me to sleep beyond the "4 AM Mesjid wake call" please

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                  • #10
                    Scanio there is a saying in Indonesia, which most of the people know, it says ; Your religion is your business and My religion is my business.

                    Hence it is better to abide by that.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KenGmail View Post
                      Scanio there is a saying in Indonesia, which most of the people know, it says ; Your religion is your business and My religion is my business.

                      Hence it is better to abide by that.
                      That's a load of crap. More like your religion is your religion and my religion is bad if it's not your religion. You are talking like Indonesia is a nice tolerant country. Well, better look around, it isn't. The radicals are growing and the residents for the most part are cowards to speak up or speak out. When they do, it's normally too late. So, your religion is everyone's business and it better be the right one.
                      [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KenGmail View Post
                        Scanio there is a saying in Indonesia, which most of the people know, it says ; Your religion is your business and My religion is my business.

                        Hence it is better to abide by that.
                        What non-sense is that ... I don't have a religion .. every-time I pick up the newspaper (on a daily basis) it's suicide bombings, people going to jail for expressing an opinion and other religion fuelled atrocities that impact upon free, rational thinking society ,,, up with which I will not put .. stop praising people of faith as if they deserve some special right.

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                        • #13
                          faith is belief in something without evidence .. how about we teach the 6yo the beliefs of Spinoza , Einstein Sagan, Krauss. climate change scientists, etc .. 50 years on the world maybe better off .. ..has anybody in the Trump camp noticed our sister planet Venus runaway greenhouse effect ? .. nup ..they are just pretend hypocritical Jesus (a man that probably never existed) freaks promoting the opposite of what he "preached" .. (the "no thought for the morrow" was a bit weird and he promised to come back in the life time of his listeners .. hence Easter has been a waste of time ) ... its time to grow up out of this treating religion as worthy of respect ... please take time to look at a photo or tw of the universe via say NASA and then see if you believe that an imaginary man in the sky cares about what you eat and at what time .. and fails to intervene in the killing of millions in "his own name:"

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                          • #14
                            the standard reply usually is "god works in mysterious ways" or why is there something rather than nothing ...I must be important ... forget Jesus ..the stars died for us ,...we are made of star stuff ....

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                            • #15
                              I support the right to blaspheme and offend as much as possible. Freedom of speech is a basic human right recognized by UN charter and that means everyone has the right to offend and question any sacredly held believes or faith. That's how we dragged ourselves out of the dark ages folks and that's a good thing.

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