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  • #46
    No..I never say all of Indonesian alcoholic.But in Indonesia...the problem not only coruption, but also alcohol and drugs.Some of my friends died because of it....And it become serious problem in my city. Not only in my city, but in Indonesia.

    A lot of parents bankrupt (they must sell their car, house, their land) to cure their son/daughter who addicted alcohol and drugs. Because a lot of them have serious ill after consume drugs for several years.

    Before they used drugs....they always "Nongkrong-nongkrong"(joint ) with smoker and alcoholic, after that....somebody offer some drugs (Pil BK, cimenk, etc) with lower level. After they tried lower level drugs....they want more higly sensation, so they tried shabu2, etc.

    According my friends experiences, after they addicted drugs....they sold everything to buy drugs. If they don't have money, they will do everything to get drugs...They sold their handphone, their laptop, their motorcycle, and their parent's poverty to buy drugs. Being a thief to buy drugs...being "Preman" or "Tukang Palak" to buy drugs. (Tukang Palak: ask money by force)...etc.
    And after they got serious ill...their parents must cure them in hospital for a long time, and its'not cheap for Indonesian.

    In Lampung....some young men being "Tukang Palak" and the money just for alcohol to get drunk....
    I can say like this, because there are some young men from Lampung, came to our Majelis. They asked to be cured...
    They said, in their village almost all of young men being "tukang palak"...and some of them being "begal", and the money just for buying alcohol and drugs.
    One of the young man said to my husband, that he ever killed some people when he was being a "Begal"....and the money just for having fun with his friends by buying alcohol and drugs.
    Last edited by be happy; 21-05-16, 17:02.
    [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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    • #47
      Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
      Soooooo, because some people can't handle alcohol responsibly, we should make it illegal for everyone? I have a friend that is a really bad driver - keeps getting in accidents and hurting people. I myself don't drive, so I think we should make driving illegal because I am tired of these drivers hurting others......
      Specious reasoning.

      Automotive accidents kill 1.25 million people a year, yet alcohol kills 3 million a year.

      http://www.who.int/gho/road_safety/mortality/en/

      http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/facts/alcohol/en/

      Alcohol kills people for far more reasons than traffic fatalities, and compounding that are alcohol's very real associations with violence. Vehicles, at least those that burn fossil fuels, are both necessary to support our food distribution networks and economies and also are a key factor for climate change. We need these vehicles, yet they are dangerous to the survival of our species. We've worked ourselves into a dangerous position of DEPENDENCE on these vehicles.

      We don't depend on alcohol for a damn thing. No one must have it to survive, yet everyone in developed countries must have vehicles to deliver the goods that keep them clothed and fed. We can't feed ourselves otherwise. We can get rid of one (alcohol) and the world will keep on spinning. If we got rid of vehicles... civilization itself would collapse.

      Let's talk about alcohol in the frank terms we do tobacco. Most people in developed countries have grown up with strong anti-smoking efforts because, hey, everybody today knows they kill ya. We haven't banned them, but we've worked them into a realm of being less desirable, we've acknowledged that they are deleterious for health and ultimately for the economy.

      Alcohol is the same thing as tobacco and we should be treating it as such.

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      • #48
        Well quite true Dan, but as an American you know what happened during prohibition, alcohol is banned in Saudi, makes no difference, there's more alcoholics there, King Saud was an alcoholic, if you go down to the empty quarter to his old castle it is littered with empty whiskey bottles, alcohol is a problem, especially among indigenous races, American Indians, Australian aborigines and Papuans, alcohol has been around since the time of the ancient Egyptians, probably before, control like banning isn't the answer, I would never have though, so many people in England and the rest of UK would give up smoking, but a reduction of alcohol problems could probably be done, it would take time, but an outright ban is ludicrous, and totally unenforceable, bit like banning Ganga growing in areas of Indonesia

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        • #49
          According to the same source of WHO stats for 2012 ...http://www.who.int/gho/phe/indoor_ai...urden_text/en/

          4.3 million deaths, or 10% of mortality in 3rd world countries....was caused by household air pollution mainly cooking oil. Maybe the nice Mayor from Surabaya can find an alternate to cooking oil to prevent this carnage.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
            Specious reasoning..
            of course I was being specious Dan - yes of course we need transportation - but if we wanted we could in fact make the argument work by saying, for example, that only professional drivers working for corporations that are highly regulated with regular training etc should be allowed to drive.....

            "Automotive accidents kill 1.25 million people a year, yet alcohol kills 3 million a year. "

            So by your argument - as long as we can bring the death rate down to 1.25 million a year from 3 million we can stop talking about banning it?

            "Alcohol is the same thing as tobacco and we should be treating it as such."

            Ok Dan - tell me one non-obscure country that bans tobacco?

            Quit it trying to hide behind "health" benefits for the population as a means to advance beliefs religious. In fact there are plenty of studies that show health benefits of alcohol consumption in moderation - so even this argument hold no weight.

            yes I agree some have a problem with it and thus create problems for others. So punish them not the rest. And yes public education and assistance for those with a problem are also good things. But don't try to take one of life's legal pleasures away just because you want to impose your religious beliefs on someone else!

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            • #51
              Personally I am not a fan of alcohol.
              I do however make my own and share with friends when they visit... & will continue to do so - cos I don't live in Surabaya
              Most of our "muslim " friends like a beer or something more exotic.
              I think going around legislating the arse out of society is somewhat pathetic and when politics is involved I'd say it is usually a smokescreen for some other skullduggery afoot.
              Get the masses distracted with a debate about booze /drugs/ etc... whilst we sell off some natural resources or slide some other political hot potato under the carpet.

              & Yeah - prohibition... NOT gonna work... any more than it has worked elsewhere.
              BUT as far as I see it is a bye-law - and if the governor wants to introduce it & has the power, then he (is it a he...?) will introduce it... chuntering in here won't change that.

              It will be interesting to see how long it is before I meet the governor... I seem to be meeting a great deal of ex ministers, ex governors, ex bupatis etc down the jail.
              Cicak Magnet

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              • #52
                Originally posted by johntap View Post
                No doubt. Interesting choice of word "moonshine". With such as ban I guess we are going to see an uptick in private stills like a hundred years back in US, and sadly more wood alcohol deaths.
                Shhhh... my lemon tree makes lemonade...
                Cicak Magnet

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
                  of course I was being specious Dan - yes of course we need transportation - but if we wanted we could in fact make the argument work by saying, for example, that only professional drivers working for corporations that are highly regulated with regular training etc should be allowed to drive.....

                  "Automotive accidents kill 1.25 million people a year, yet alcohol kills 3 million a year. "

                  So by your argument - as long as we can bring the death rate down to 1.25 million a year from 3 million we can stop talking about banning it?
                  Even if only professional drivers could transport necessities, we'd still need to find ways to transport ourselves from our homes that are frequently many miles from our jobs.

                  Self-driving vehicles may soon solve this "problem."

                  I posted the differential so you could understand that a majority of alcohol's fatalities were not traffic fatalities, not to suggest that there's an acceptable number of deaths from unsafe products. Of course, if you want to consider the numbers for each and how important each is, we can easily see that we need vehicles as a mode of transportation to support civilization as we know it today. We have no such need for alcohol.

                  Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
                  "Alcohol is the same thing as tobacco and we should be treating it as such."

                  Ok Dan - tell me one non-obscure country that bans tobacco?

                  Quit it trying to hide behind "health" benefits for the population as a means to advance beliefs religious. In fact there are plenty of studies that show health benefits of alcohol consumption in moderation - so even this argument hold no weight.

                  yes I agree some have a problem with it and thus create problems for others. So punish them not the rest. And yes public education and assistance for those with a problem are also good things. But don't try to take one of life's legal pleasures away just because you want to impose your religious beliefs on someone else!
                  I didn't advocate that either be banned, I merely pointed out that in my own lifetime we've seen a dramatic drop in tobacco consumption due to public policy shifts. Why? Hey, because it's bad for you. To say that alcohol can possibly be good for some people is fine, but any such health benefits are grossly outweighed by all the harm. To suggest that alcohol is great and a panacea and we can't ban it because it's healthy is... I dunno, detached from reality.

                  We don't need to ban it, we do need to discourage it. This is a public health issue, not an issue of fussy morality (though certainly for the administration in Surabaya it IS a fussy moral issue).

                  What is more disturbing than the moral crusade is the dissimulation concerning the harm that alcohol causes. Go argue with the numbers if you're really itching for a fight. Alcohol is a net loss; for the economy and for public health.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post

                    What is more disturbing than the moral crusade is the dissimulation concerning the harm that alcohol causes. Go argue with the numbers if you're really itching for a fight. Alcohol is a net loss; for the economy and for public health.
                    violins playing...zzzzz

                    same with many things Dan - sugar, fatty foods, pollution, etc. There will never be a utopian society where everything is for the greater good. Education - I already said I agree. Just like with everything. But that is not what this thread is about - rather it is about banning alcohol based on religious beliefs. Full stop.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
                      violins playing...zzzzz

                      same with many things Dan - sugar, fatty foods, pollution, etc. There will never be a utopian society where everything is for the greater good. Education - I already said I agree. Just like with everything. But that is not what this thread is about - rather it is about banning alcohol based on religious beliefs. Full stop.
                      Sugar and fatty foods, while a public health issue, only harm those who consume them. They don't gorge themselves and then crash into others causing bodily harm. Outside of people in diabetic comas, it's not a prelude to rape.

                      Pollution is a valid concern that harms people other than the consumer.

                      I agree that the local government in Surabaya is enacting legislation based on morality. However, a ban of alcohol over 10% alch. by volume could potentially be good public policy if combined with abuse counseling, educational outreach and proper training and enforcement for dealing with alcohol related offenses. I somehow doubt that breathalyzer testing is widely available, as an example.

                      So the measure falls short, it's half ass. But the world will go on with or without alcohol anywhere in the archipelago. It's not merely the Muslim areas.

                      http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...nsumption.html

                      Locals see bans as a means to combat problems with alcohol consumption, and the problems are very real, but these methods have unintended consequences because they're not well thought out. Is it better or worse? Who knows. They won't have American-style Prohibition because alcohol is not as widely consumed in Indonesia as it was in America before the Volstead Act. There's a market, just not much of one. So if they ban it, big deal, white people and about 2% of the local population will be nonplussed.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by be happy View Post
                        I have a lot of friends used drugs. And alcohol was the first step before they acquainted with drugs. And they are moslem.
                        This is the classic "gateway to drugs" argument which has already been proven to not hold water. Many people around the world consume drugs and alcohol for recreation and you know what ?? NOTHING HAPPENS they get high they get drunk and then on Monday morning they rejoin respectable society, hold down good jobs and are upstanding members of the community.
                        The fact that some people drink and become alcoholics or do drugs and become junkies is down to the individuals and not the substance being used.

                        And they are Muslim - Well thanks for finally acknowledging the grey area I was trying to point out to you on a separate thread, the one where you argued there was no grey area. Your friends are exactly the grey area I was referring to - smell the coffee now girl ??

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                        • #57
                          if only 2% of Indonesians consume alcohol what on earth is all the fuss about, the way be happy is going on as though 1000s of Indonesians are lurching around the street and in their cars in a drunken stupor,

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                          • #58
                            I think it'snot only moslem problem...but all of people in Indonesia.
                            My friend, he is a Christian...and he get stroke after consumed alcohol and drugs. Now he is only staying at home.

                            And a lot of people from other religions being volunteers on BNN, to give education about it. Because some of them ever addicted with those "haram" thing. Some of them have brother or sister or children who died because of it...
                            And they give aducation about Napza...and how it can be dangerous for our health...

                            BNN= Badan Narkotika Nasional
                            Napza = Narkotika, Psikotropika, and Zat adiktif lainnya

                            Alcohol categorized as Zat Adiktif.

                            You can read the explanation at :
                            Pengertian dan Jenis-jenis Napza
                            http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url=...kFamC9-oweTYUQ
                            Last edited by be happy; 22-05-16, 15:11.
                            [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Anglian View Post
                              if only 2% of Indonesians consume alcohol what on earth is all the fuss about, the way be happy is going on as though 1000s of Indonesians are lurching around the street and in their cars in a drunken stupor,
                              http://m.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/2...arena-narkoba/

                              50 people in Indonesia died everyday because of Narkoba. 18.000/year (data from BNN). But not all of the data can be written by BNN, because a lot of parents only silent if their children addict to alcohol and drugs, and died because of it. It's very a shame for them.

                              And I think, that data only for people who died when using Narkoba. But....people who died because of many diseases caused of Narkoba (stroke, heart disease, kidney disease, etc) can't be written by BNN....

                              And alcohol is the gate before they use Narkoba.
                              Alcohol is Napza (categorized as Zat adiktif)
                              Last edited by be happy; 22-05-16, 11:41.
                              [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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                              • #60
                                We often heard in Indonesia "Perkelahian antar Kampung"....
                                a lot of caused by drunk people while they were watching dangdut....alcohol can make their more agresive.
                                [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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