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  • Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
    For those of us that don't speak Bahasa could you give us the gist of what your post/the actual proposed law says?
    Basically, there is some time now that Islamic parties have understood that they have NO chances to pass the law if they don't make major concessions. What is amazing is the fact that every year before Ramadhan, the draft of the law is reactivated and a lot of noise around it is done. Past Ramadhan, if the law hasn't been passed we won't hear about it until next Ramadhan.

    Basically the proposed ban doesn't concern areas where tourism is a resource nor it concerns duty free shops, five star hotels, clubs and karaoke, restaurants and shops specialized in the sale of alkohol beverages...etc. In fact, people with money won't be much affected. We will get our booze in the same place we get it so far, just at an inflated price.

    The only thing that the proposed ban may achieve is to increase corruption (To sell alkohol in any of the above places you need an izin -ITMPB- issued by the local government), an increase of the price of legit alkohol (money back for the red tape and ITMPB) and a huge increase in the production of bootleg stuff because, one way or another, those who don't have the money to afford an over increasing price for safe booze, will turn to cheap poison.

    When there is a market, there are entrepreneurs. In a country where many cops have a price tag and where profit on the production and sell of alkohol are high , believing that a ban will produce positive results for the health of people is at best naive.

    Production of alkohol is already a closed sector for investment. Yet, in my area, I know at least 5 places producing bootleg stuff (they also wholesale brown sugar which is why I know them well). They don't really hide anyway. They just pay the "protection" required.

    Now when it comes to places which retail this poison stuff it would be pointless for me to keep the count. MOST warung here sell our locally illegally produced "cap tikus". These warung also sell beer such as Bintang or Anker. Tomorrow they won't. They have started to stop anyway with most of the legit brewers having increased already twice their price in 2015 bringing the price of a bottle to a level already slightly higher than the bootleg stuff.

    Today you can get a bottle of cap tikus the size of a big bottle of Bintang for Rp 20.000/Rp 25.000 in most warungs of my city. Cheaper if you know where to look or go by the jerigen. But unlike beer, it ain't less than 5% of alcohol content. More like 30% to 40%. Guess what is the most popular product?

    Despite being already illegal this bootleg stuff has always been easy to get. It wouldn't take more than an hour to a fresh-off-the-boat bule to wet his lips with it.
    Last edited by atlantis; 31-05-16, 19:52.

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    • The Islamic party may be trying to make the country more to their ideology, some other people may hope that less availability at Warungs may cut down on corruption profits, with reduced outlets, and make it easier to enforce. But without enforcement it will be very limited. However even with proper enforcement there are always some willing to make a profit through illegal sales. I doubt that every idea is one dimensional but may have varied beliefs\ ideas in it.
      Last edited by Daniel50; 31-05-16, 22:44.

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      • Originally posted by atlantis View Post

        Now when it comes to places which retail this poison stuff it would be pointless for me to keep the count. MOST warung here sell our locally illegally produced "cap tikus". These warung also sell beer such as Bintang or Anker. Tomorrow they won't. They have started to stop anyway with most of the legit brewers having increased already twice their price in 2015 bringing the price of a bottle to a level already slightly higher than the bootleg stuff.

        Today you can get a bottle of cap tikus the size of a big bottle of Bintang for Rp 20.000/Rp 25.000 in most warungs of my city. Cheaper if you know where to look or go by the jerigen. But unlike beer, it ain't less than 5% of alcohol content. More like 30% to 40%. Guess what is the most popular product?

        Despite being already illegal this bootleg stuff has always been easy to get. It wouldn't take more than an hour to a fresh-off-the-boat bule to wet his lips with it.

        i don't understand what is "a bottle of cap tikus" product, is that a local beer or alcohol like beer bintang? the questions is it's safe to consume and have a permission from DepKES/ health minister ???
        [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
        [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
        [/FONT][/COLOR]

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        • Originally posted by sunflower20 View Post
          i don't understand what is "a bottle of cap tikus" product, is that a local beer or alcohol like beer bintang? the questions is it's safe to consume and have a permission from DepKES/ health minister ???
          Hi Sunflower20,
          Cap Tikus is a traditional Minahasan liquor made from the nira aren tree. The largest part of what is produced is produced illegally therefore without any izin from DepKes or any izin from pemkot/pemkab. In fact the amount produced legally is so tiny that... I wouldn't even be able to tell you where to buy a bottle of LEGAL Cap Tikus. No kidding.

          Worse, I have just asked around to four of our drivers and the reaction were hilarious. The first one looked at me with an air of "Oh Kasiang! Bos dapa demam! Dia so nentau apa dia ja bilang" (Jeez! Bos got fever! He doesn't know what he is talking about anymore). Really he wouldn't have looked more concerned if he would have seen a ghost.

          The three others just look at me with incredulity. None of them knew that there was such a thing than "legal cap tikus". None of them also expressed any interest in where to find any anyway. Why would you give you headache to get legal cap tikus when the counterfeit/bootleg stuff is available anywhere? It's perhaps a bit like living in glodok and insisting on looking where to buy a genuine cd movie.

          Cap Tikus is a poison, legal or not. If you were born here and have never tasted anything else, perhaps you could put up with it and its side effects but otherwise you would stay away from it, as I do. I am blessed to have excellent eyesight and want to keep it this way, along with what is left of my sanity.

          MinSel farmers in the area of motoling have recurrently made serious proposal to us Cap Tikus as an alternative BBM. Would you drink a sloki or two of premium? Me, no. thank you. Even if you offer me Petromax.

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          • And the point is be happy what has all this got to do with Surabya going dry, Jinns, shooting stars, mountains that sway, I'm afraid I've lost the plot somewhere, perhaps you could open a new thread to discuss whatever it is you are discussing,

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            • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
              what has all this got to do with Surabya going dry,
              Indeed. I would be interested by the answer.

              @ all,
              Please, for the respect of other users who are not interested by discussions which are irrelevant to the topic of the thread, keep on topic. If this warning is not clearly understood the mod team will proceed to more drastic measures such as deletion and infraction. In the meantime, off topic post will be moved.

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              • Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                Hi Sunflower20,
                Cap Tikus is a traditional Minahasan liquor made from the nira aren tree. The largest part of what is produced is produced illegally therefore without any izin from DepKes or any izin from pemkot/pemkab. In fact the amount produced legally is so tiny that... I wouldn't even be able to tell you where to buy a bottle of LEGAL Cap Tikus. No kidding.

                Cap Tikus is a poison, legal or not. If you were born here and have never tasted anything else, perhaps you could put up with it and its side effects but otherwise you would stay away from it, as I do. I am blessed to have excellent eyesight and want to keep it this way, along with what is left of my sanity.

                MinSel farmers in the area of motoling have recurrently made serious proposal to us Cap Tikus as an alternative BBM. Would you drink a sloki or two of premium? Me, no. thank you. Even if you offer me Petromax.

                OK..sounds really dangerous..and don't get it if some ppl keep consume this cap tikus...but what i wonder, DepKes not make any statement not to drink cap tikus...but i was wonder that nira aren tree can be really dangeours as ur link to say can be use as an alternative BBM. because as i remember this tree, or i will call it "Pohon tebu" are really sweet and i used to drink from the shell of that Nira , it's quiet sweet like u drinks a tea..and i saw in a small/ big mall, sometimes there are some shop sell that Air tebu...i assume it's not the same as Cap Tikus....CMIIW
                [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                [/FONT][/COLOR]

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                • Originally posted by sunflower20 View Post
                  OK..sounds really dangerous..and don't get it if some ppl keep consume this cap tikus...but what i wonder, DepKes not make any statement not to drink cap tikus...but i was wonder that nira aren tree can be really dangeours as ur link to say can be use as an alternative BBM. because as i remember this tree, or i will call it "Pohon tebu" are really sweet and i used to drink from the shell of that Nira , it's quiet sweet like u drinks a tea..and i saw in a small/ big mall, sometimes there are some shop sell that Air tebu...i assume it's not the same as Cap Tikus....CMIIW
                  Air tebu is sugar cane. That is different from aren, which is a palm tree. Just looking at the alcohol content Atlantis mentioned, the cap tikus has got to be distilled, which is where the health risks come in.

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                  • Great and concise explanation, Happyman. Thanks for it. Cheers.

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                    • These two products should be where the government should be concentrating, I doubt if you could ever ban it, but at least try to control to prevent needles deaths

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                      • Ok sorry i mix it around...I though it's the same aren and gula tebu...thanks for correction. ��
                        [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                        [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                        [/FONT][/COLOR]

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                        • A report in Jakarta Post today page 3, from an advisory group in Indonesia, says that prohibition of alcohol will cause MORE deaths. Yet religious parties in the legislature are still steaming ahead with creating this total alcohol banning law...seems they don't even listen to their own advisors.
                          One wonders if they are really interested in health and welfare or just pushing their religious agenda.

                          "The Center for Indonesian Policy Studies (CIPS) recorded a strong correlation between prohibitions on alcohol and cases of poisoning from unlicensed alcohol.
                          The study, based on news reports since 2013 in Java, recorded that 106 people were injured or died in seven regions that did not regulate alcohol. In 12 regions that placed some control on the sale of alcohol, the number was 192, while in 11 regions that enforced a total ban on alcohol, the number of victims was 331."

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                          • Originally posted by Davita View Post
                            A report in Jakarta Post today page 3, from an advisory group in Indonesia, says that prohibition of alcohol will cause MORE deaths. Yet religious parties in the legislature are still steaming ahead with creating this total alcohol banning law...seems they don't even listen to their own advisors.
                            One wonders if they are really interested in health and welfare or just pushing their religious agenda.

                            "The Center for Indonesian Policy Studies (CIPS) recorded a strong correlation between prohibitions on alcohol and cases of poisoning from unlicensed alcohol.
                            The study, based on news reports since 2013 in Java, recorded that 106 people were injured or died in seven regions that did not regulate alcohol. In 12 regions that placed some control on the sale of alcohol, the number was 192, while in 11 regions that enforced a total ban on alcohol, the number of victims was 331."
                            first I was surprised about this law, then I realized which party have this idea. then it donned to me "it's all politics, they only care that they conceived this law so they can gain more vote..." and now no surprises
                            Spider pig spider pig, does whatever a spider pig can

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                            • Counter-intuitively as someone who enjoys a gargle I would welcome a total ban, because then booze will become much more available and cheaper too.

                              If there is one thing history and economics have proven it is that governments, no matter how often they have tried, cannot buck the market. If someone wants to buy something that someone else wants to sell, that transaction will happen no matter how hard the government attempts to prevent it and no matter how efficient and well-organised that government is (and "efficient" and "well-organised" are not terms heretofore associated with the Indonesian government). The government has also banned pornography in Indonesia as I recall, is there any lack of pornography available in Indonesia today?

                              I recall the big move to crack down on the sale of cigarettes in the UK in the late 1990s, with massive increases in taxation and restrictions on the sale of them. What happened? Well the only result I recall was that a long-established family-owned tobacconist business in my home town, a magnificent old-fashioned Victorian style shop that had sold every weird and wonderful variety of tobacco under the sun for over a century, closed down. Meanwhile around the corner you couldn't walk twenty feet without being accosted by some little gobshite selling you bargain-priced cigarettes smuggled in from Latvia out of the back of a van. Smokers thought all their birthdays had come at once.

                              So it will be here, at the moment booze can be hard to get (well harder than back home but not that hard really) and more importantly it is massively over-priced as it is so ludicrously taxed. If there is a ban I know that within a half an hour I will be able to get my hands on un-taxed cheap booze delivered to my door, happy days.

                              Is there any doubt about this? Has there ever been an instance in history where a country famously tried to ban the sale of alcohol? Hmm, remind me, how did that work out?

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                              • I will have to brush up on my beer making skills, haven't needed since Saudi, have to say though my wine did need some more effort

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