Surabaya to become alcohol free city

[Anglian]

Yesterday I was in Bintaro helping my daughter put a baby clothes shop together, putting racks together, shelves up changing locks, by early evening we were done,so on the way home to Pondok Cabe we stopped at Bintaro plaza mall Hero to do a bit of shopping also I thought I might have a beer as I had worked up a thirst, but as soon as I entered the mall, I knew I was doomed to failure, I was immediately struck that every women had a Jilbab, a sure enough no beer, but I suppose if no one buys it not much point in selling it, but what I did notice is the amount of those very unhealthy sugary soft drinks being sold, so much sugar in a possible danger to life and diabetics, these drinks unlike beer do not refresh the parts that need to be refreshed, anyway when we got home to my surprise the good lady had bought unknown to me a Belgium strawberry beer from Grand lucky, boy that tasted good and as a treat I let the good wife and daughter have a sip, I might add my daughter has never tasted beer, but my wife does like Kilkenny, a taste she aquired in Malaysia, they thought this was much healthier than the sugar loaded orange drinks they had bought themselves.
I asked my daughter why every women had a Jilbab,even tiny girls, she said they were the Nuevo rich of Bintaro, an new elite middle clas who have moved into all the new houses in Bintaro, for those who might assume my wife is a bad Muslim she prays a lot, at least twice a day, even at 4.30am, quite scary if you don't know, a white apparition pops up at the end of the bed, then disappears again,fasts now and then,totally fasts during Ramadan and the kampung she came from sired one of the Bali bombers, whose poor granny dropped dead when they all found out.
The purpose of this rant is that we should band together to ban this dreadful soft drinks loaded with excessive amounts of sugar that is rotting the kids teeth leading to obesity and diabitic , I have notice over the years how fat Indonesian have got, plus some real fat kids, do you thing there is some tie up between fat kids and people and conservative Islam

[Davita]

I have notice over the years how fat Indonesian have got, plus some real fat kids, do you thing there is some tie up between fat kids and people and conservative Islam

Seen the same happen in Hong Kong so not sure it has anything to do with religion. I went there in 1974 and noticed all the school kids were slightly built...only some chubby.
16 years later, when I left, most kids were much fatter than previously, some seriously obese...I put in done to fast food. KFC, McD and Pizza Hut had all invaded the Colony in that time-scale but it could also be that the economy had boomed. Could be similar in RI.

Strange to read the Indonesian Gov't is importing tons of beef and rice in preparation for Fasting (Puasa)...WTF.

[Anglian]

There's a family just moved in top of the road, the mother is huge and here 3 offspring are really huge, they live the TV Trundlies, a grossly fat family that used to be on TV wrecking shop furniture, the kids are continually eating and when done they just dump their crisp packets or what ever where they Stan, so you know their house it's the one with all the wrapping paper outside, funnily never seen the dad, perhaps he is normal size

[Mister Bule]

Since being a member of this forum I've never seen much discussion on the Pope and Catholics, the meaning of the scriptures from Protestants, what the different celebrations of Bali Hindu is about and nothing from Buddhists...yet so many posts about how to interpret the Koran, and how many different ways to lead one's life, according to a book.

So what is your point? You are shocked, in spite of all your years in Indonesia, to find that the country has a lot more people who are Muslims than any other religion? You find it unacceptable that they should talk about a religion that is ... well ... pretty important here?

People start discussions here about events and developments in the world and especially (naturally) in Indonesia. Since somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of Indonesia's population is Muslim, one might sort of expect that:

1) Islam and Muslim culture and "adat" will have a pretty strong influence on things happening in Indonesia and the way things are done here.( Granted, that has only been so for the last several centuries, and may not always be so in the future ... but it's a pretty safe bet for at least the next few decades, wouldn't you think?)

2) When Indonesian issues are discussed, Islam and Muslim values will inevitably be often made part of the conversation, again hardly shocking given the context as stated above in #1.

Yet you seem to feel particularly annoyed or even offended by the "interjection" of any discussion about religion, religious values or tenets of faith, rules, etc, in discussions of ... "current events and politics", on this forum? This isn't a thread about where to find HP sauce, is it?

How exactly do you think we should be having discussions of politics and current events in Indonesia with Islam left out of it? It's shocking to me that you feel and think this way, if you really do ... as if Muslims ... Indonesian Muslims ... are breaking down your personal space boundaries (virtually speaking) by talking about their values and their religion here?

Whose country is this, anyway? No, it is not the Muslims' country, it is for all Indonesians, and I can agree with some of your points about Pancasila and its real or potential erosion due to more hardline (or poser) elements. These are very real and valid concerns and you have every right to express your opinions about them.

But you seem to imply that posters like Dan (who has made it pretty clear that his objection to alcohol and support for, at least, discouraging its use is NOT solely grounded in his religious values ... in fact he has approached the subject not from a religious / moral standpoint, but from one of public health and safety), be happy and sunflower do not have an equal right to express their opinions ... because their opinions may come from or be grounded in religion? If this is the case, how do you defend such a proposition?

If roughly 90% of the Indonesian people are Muslims ... what do you expect? "Muslim-free" or "Islam-free" zones? In your house maybe, sure ... silakan. But in public life (including a public forum, which as a recent thread made clear, is NOT "just for expats")? Are you serious?

.It seems to me almost apologetic that Muslims have to constantly explain to others their arguable interpretations of this book....apparently written about 1400 years ago...in Arabic

Who says that Muslims "have to" explain anything to anyone? You think I posted here because I felt some obligation to do so? How do you come by this conclusion? Do you think that be happy, who has been very patiently, persistently but, I should add, politely expressing her views, the attitude of Islam and Muslims generally towards alcohol use and where it comes from (Qur'an), has been doing so because she feels compelled or obligated to explain it? You think that this is in some way "apologetic"? Sorry, but this is way off course. You may think that Muslims should feel the need to apologize for what they practice or believe, but very few actually do feel such a need .... that's certainly an interesting "interpretation" of why some Muslims would take the time and effort to try to explain aspects of Islam or Muslim beliefs to non-believers.

My wife is Indonesian and Christian. She says when she was a schoolgirl her whole big family lived together with other religions, mainly Muslim, and there was no feeling of differences, or animosity, in her neighborhood. She recently visited her sister in Tangerang, who is a Protestant and attends a church in Jakarta, and says the religious tension in that neighborhood is palpable and the little girls all wear jilbab when, in her day, very few did...."something has changed"...she said "my sister doesn't even celebrate Xmas Eve in her own house any more....'coz she's afraid."

Regarding the bolded portion: my wife is Muslim and has described her childhood in just the same way. Not only that, but as I have seen myself, the same spirit of general harmony and cooperation exists in her kampung to this day (there are no churches within the kampung, but a small minority of Christian families ... my father-in-law rented one of his houses to one of those families until recently ... they have since moved out of the neighborhood, but not because of any "religious tensions").

Now I am not saying that things have not changed, and perhaps changed dramatically in some areas of the country. I believe that they have, though certainly not everywhere. In Medan, far from my wife's territory, I have also observed very little in the way of religious tension or conflict. Does it exist? Sure. Is increasing radicalization of Muslim communities a problem, issue and concern? Definitely. Is erosion of Pancasila a real concern and danger? I absolutely agree that it is.

But what does that have to do with Muslims exercising their right (sorry, privilege, in terms of this board) to express their views, including talking about their religion?

(edit to add) Living in Indonesia - by voluntary choice - and then complaining that there are Muslims everywhere, doing Muslim stuff and trying to influence the country to follow Muslim belief and practice, is a bit like choosing to live in Oz and then complaining that the place is overrun with Munchkins constantly singing their Munchkin songs, isn't it?

[Mister Bule]

do you thing there is some tie up between fat kids and people and conservative Islam

I expect you would find a much more convincing correlation between obesity and economic status (wealth) as well as lax parenting and simple over-indulgence.

Islam (conservative or otherwise) promotes moderation (in things which are allowed) and taking care of one's physical health. There are certainly Muslims who over-eat and / or spoil and indulge their kids, still I'm a bit fuzzy on how you get this supposed "tie up" between "fat kids / people and conservative Islam. Sounds like you are just having a go ... in any case I could take you round the neighborhood here or in my wife's kampung and show you a lot of Muslim kids who are decidedly not overnourished ...

[Davita]

1. So what is your point?
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Now I am not saying that things have not changed, and perhaps changed dramatically in some areas of the country. I believe that they have, though certainly not everywhere. In Medan, far from my wife's territory, I have also observed very little in the way of religious tension or conflict. Does it exist? Sure. Is increasing radicalization of Muslim communities a problem, issue and concern? Definitely. Is erosion of Pancasila a real concern and danger? I absolutely agree that it is.[/COLOR]

2. But what does that have to do with Muslims exercising their right (sorry, privilege, in terms of this board) to express their views, including talking about their religion?

1. (red) That IS my point...glad you agree.

2. Please continue preaching about your faith wherever....that's your privilege....I don't have to read nor listen. I just made a remark that, on this forum, only the Muslim fraternity seem a need to explain how their religion works....constantly.

[Anglian]

I expect you would find a much more convincing correlation between obesity and economic status (wealth) as well as lax parenting and simple over-indulgence.

Islam (conservative or otherwise) promotes moderation (in things which are allowed) and taking care of one's physical health. There are certainly Muslims who over-eat and / or spoil and indulge their kids, still I'm a bit fuzzy on how you get this supposed "tie up" between "fat kids / people and conservative Islam. Sounds like you are just having a go ... in any case I could take you round the neighborhood here or in my wife's kampung and show you a lot of Muslim kids who are decidedly not overnourished ...

That was a bit tongue in check, you can prove anything with statistics, but as I mentioned about Bintaro, the new middle class are very well off, after 18 years here I've seen a considerable improvement on people's standards, but as you say there still a some very poor people who seem to be getting poorer. I've seen and worked with some very fat Chinese Christians, it's quite amazing how you can correlate things which have nothing to do with each other and make a static, but you and Dan are quite right, most Indonesian Muslims and many others have no concern regarding beer or other drinks many partake themselves, personally I think the sugar rich soft drinks are a bigger problem than alcohol, they have introduced a sugar tax in UK to try and reduce the consumption of the sugary drinks

[Mister Bule]

1. (red) That IS my point...glad you agree.

No, you have not answered my question. My question "What is your point?" was in regard to why you need to mention how many posts there are on this forum in which posters talk about Islam. Why shouldn't they, or why shouldn't there be such posts / expression, in your opinion? That was my question.

2. Please continue preaching about your faith wherever....that's your privilege....I don't have to read nor listen. I just made a remark that, on this forum, only the Muslim fraternity seem a need to explain how their religion works....constantly.

That's just the thing, you see. I have not done any "preaching" whatsoever, on this thread, nor, to my memory, on any other. Expressing or explaining one's views, which may be grounded in one's religious beliefs, indeed expressing one's religious beliefs, is not "preaching". Talking about what one's religion says on a given subject is not "preaching". "Preaching" is when someone tells or exhorts others to follow or believe something according to that someone's own religion. I have certainly done no such thing, and how remarkably facile of you to say that I have ... nor, from what I have read of this thread (I have not read all of it), has anyone else done any "preachiing". Perhaps you could point out, specifically, what has been said here that, in your opinion, constitutes such activity?

Meanwhile, as you yourself said, when other posters express views or opinions (or even facts) which you dislike or disagree with, you don't have to pay attention to them. Surely no one is compelled to read any single word or post expressed here. There's even a feature which will block any given poster's posts from your view (when you are logged on), and if the posts of any particular poster bother or annoy you consistently, I suggest you to use this feature (including if the poster who "offends your sensibilities" is me).

I have clearly addressed the issue of why one might not be very surprised to find discussions of religion, particularly Islam, in a forum about "living in Indonesia". If you don't like that, no bark off my dog. We all have to put up with things we don't like, to some degree.

Again, Islam and Muslim beliefs seem pretty relevant in a thread about a proposal to ban alcohol in a major Indonesian city (again, context ... things not happening, isolated, in a vacuum ... etc), so ... like it or don't like it, there you go.

[Mister Bule]

but you and Dan are quite right, most Indonesian Muslims and many others have no concern regarding beer or other drinks many partake themselves

What I said was that some Indonesian Muslim men do drink beer, at least on occasion. I know personally that some do, and I extrapolate this to mean that probably "many" do, in the context of a population of more than 230 million people.

There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of Indonesian Muslims do NOT drink alcohol in any form, and I think the expression as "most Indonesian Muslims ... have no concern regarding beer" is in error ... unless you mean that most of them are not overly concerned about beer consumption by non-Muslims, in which case I would probably agree.

[Anglian]

What I said was that some Indonesian Muslim men do drink beer, at least on occasion. I know personally that some do, and I extrapolate this to mean that probably "many" do, in the context of a population of more than 230 million people.

There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of Indonesian Muslims do NOT drink alcohol in any form, and I think the expression as "most Indonesian Muslims ... have no concern regarding beer" is in error ... unless you mean that most of them are not overly concerned about beer consumption by non-Muslims, in which case I would probably agree.

Not overtly concerned, I expect most in the Kampungs haven't even seen a bottle let alone afford to buy a bottle, my wife gave me quite a telling off, our garden/ handy man did a lot of work, I gave him a beer, I know his does drink sometimes, my wife gave me a really good telling off, I don't now, but I do get an occasional hint for a bottle, I rarely have beer in the house, my Strawberry beer was the first drink since last January when I went to a pub in Perth with my son.

[Davita]

No, you have not answered my question. My question "What is your point?" was in regard to why you need to mention how many posts there are on this forum in which posters talk about Islam. Why shouldn't they, or why shouldn't there be such posts / expression, in your opinion? That was my question.



That's just the thing, you see. I have not done any "preaching" whatsoever, on this thread, nor, to my memory, on any other. Expressing or explaining one's views, which may be grounded in one's religious beliefs, indeed expressing one's religious beliefs, is not "preaching". Talking about what one's religion says on a given subject is not "preaching". "Preaching" is when someone tells or exhorts others to follow or believe something according to that someone's own religion. I have certainly done no such thing, and how remarkably facile of you to say that I have ... nor, from what I have read of this thread (I have not read all of it), has anyone else done any "preachiing". Perhaps you could point out, specifically, what has been said here that, in your opinion, constitutes such activity?

Meanwhile, as you yourself said, when other posters express views or opinions (or even facts) which you dislike or disagree with, you don't have to pay attention to them. Surely no one is compelled to read any single word or post expressed here. There's even a feature which will block any given poster's posts from your view (when you are logged on), and if the posts of any particular poster bother or annoy you consistently, I suggest you to use this feature (including if the poster who "offends your sensibilities" is me).

I have clearly addressed the issue of why one might not be very surprised to find discussions of religion, particularly Islam, in a forum about "living in Indonesia". If you don't like that, no bark off my dog. We all have to put up with things we don't like, to some degree.

Again, Islam and Muslim beliefs seem pretty relevant in a thread about a proposal to ban alcohol in a major Indonesian city (again, context ... things not happening, isolated, in a vacuum ... etc), so ... like it or don't like it, there you go.

I dont have to answer any question posed by you...what audacity. I made a remark on my observation...take it or leave it.
I'll make another remark...those that use profuse language to make their point are usually trying to convolute.

[Kimdub]

(edit to add) Living in Indonesia - by voluntary choice - and then complaining that there are Muslims everywhere, doing Muslim stuff and trying to influence the country to follow Muslim belief and practice, is a bit like choosing to live in Oz and then complaining that the place is overrun with Munchkins constantly singing their Munchkin songs, isn't it?

This is where I have to stop myself. I am very critical of countries that open their borders to groups that don't even try to assimilate to the host country. So if we choose to live here, we accept the local customs and laws. However, this does not mean that we shouldn't be able to express our personal views.

The growing conservatism and what I call the increasing Arab influence I have noticed since living here does concern me. Tourism and business investment that can help improve the country will not be helped by such laws as banning alcohol. I just wish the emphasis was on things like fighting corruption, infrastruture improvements and health care would take priority over what seem to be religiously inspired actions.

[Mister Bule]

I dont have to answer any question posed by you...what audacity. I made a remark on my observation...take it or leave it.
I'll make another remark...those that use profuse language to make their point are usually trying to convolute.

Audacity, eh? But I never said that you are obligated to answer my question. I simply pointed out what my question was in reference to, as if that shouldn't be obvious from the bit of your post quoted above it.

This is not the first time I have been accused of "profusity" (okay, profusion). I remain unperturbed by criticism of my lack of concision in written (or typed) expression.

As for convolution, I believe you are mistaking "thoroughness" for that, and that you are quite in error. But let me ask you another question (which you DO NOT HAVE TO ANSWER!): which is worse, "convolution", or "misrepresentation"?

In any case, I believe we have reached an impasse. You cannot understand why, according to you, a few Muslims "need" to talk about their religion here.

I cannot understand why that bothers you, why you perceive this as a "need" rather than simply a choice, and why you choose (or "need" to even mention it, when as you yourself have said, you can simply ignore statements or posts which you dislike or which annoy or "trouble" you.

So why not just do that? No, you don't have to answer, I know.

[Mister Bule]

This is where I have to stop myself. I am very critical of countries that open their borders to groups that don't even try to assimilate to the host country. So if we choose to live here, we accept the local customs and laws. However, this does not mean that we shouldn't be able to express our personal views.

Personally, I have no problem with anyone expressing his or her views, but some here do seem to have issues with some people expressing some views ... (shrug)

[Daniel50]

I am not sure which places sell alcohol in Indonesia, but if they choose to restrict outlets eg. minimarkets and supermarkets then this should be there right as different provinces etc. have the right to set there bylaws. If some people feel this inconveniences them then so be it.