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  • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
    if you were a black man in Chicago your chances of making old age aren't too good, the problem not alcohol but drugs
    This black man from Chicago apparently done good...here's his new house.....http://www.marketwatch.com/story/her...use-2016-05-25...
    Last edited by Davita; 28-05-16, 13:34.

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    • Originally posted by rabbit_39 View Post
      Ummm fruit don't contain alcohol until they rot and ferment naturally.
      Durian contain alcohol.....but if we eat lots, we willnot drunk....but our stomach will be hot, bloating, and we can't (sorry) fart....
      [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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      • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
        I believe the Quran was written after Mohammed's death wasn't it, to me religion is a personnel thing, and really up to the individual to lead his life as he sees fit, if some one wants a beer,up to him, if they are some gods laws, then it's up to God to punish him, not some ignorant man, why if alcohol is haram, have the Turks, Eygyptians, Morocan,Algerians,Albanians and many others brewing and wine making over the centuries, and they haven't been doing it for westerners, so why this sudden panic about alcohol, people keep flashing statistic that so many people die of alcohol related deaths, I feel these statistics are taken out of context, more blacks in America die by gunshot, sadly on the increase, the amount of deaths from alcohol, legal that is is very small compared to illegal alcohol, drug related deaths much hire, kids who don't drink use drugs, here's a daft thing about statistics, someone in the states discovered that the decrease in Roman Catholic clergy was proportional to the increase in the mouse population of California,so logically if we kill off half the mice the clergy has increased, has it. It seems to me and most contributors to this threadis that the only reason the ban is wanted is to control people, much like Acheh. Religion and politics don't work together, you only have to look at the Middle East to see the total shambles, the west I suppose could be blamed for some, but basically trying to run a country of religious dogma just doesn't work,
        Qur'an was written after the prophet death???

        So the people who wrote it very clever....they knew galaxy, they knew black hole, they knew that big bang is like a red rose, they knew there is river in the sea, they knew water isnot from the cloud but from the sky. They knew that mumy of pharaoh in Moses time will be found, maybe they had modern binocular like hubble to observe the universe (galaxy, nebula, etc), or they have beyond imagination that very accurate..... :-P

        Religion is to manage human attitute....and it's not only for our time, but for the past.
        Alcohol is the problem not only in this time but also the past....
        Not only in Arab, but also in the west, and in the east...and drugs very common in our era....and it's clasified as "khamar" too....because it can make people drunk....

        We can see in Budhis and Hindus temples....there are a lot of reliefs about "Malima" (Madon, Maling, Madat..etc)... Madat is drunk.
        In the reliefs there are people who drunk and they hold a kind of glass...and in the relief some of women near the drunkers...and those women are prostitutes or women who accompany them to drink alcohol.

        They want to tell.us...if people drink alcohol, they will go to a place that sell alcohol, and in that place a lot of women will accompany to drink....and after that, they do zina....(the reliefs tell us about that).

        So in the reliefs....there is a story about alcohol, not only that...the relief also giving another story about alcohol and zina..and they belief that it wasn't good for their society..

        This relief still related with our modern life....a lot of people drink alcohol...they go to warung remang-remang or to bar, and some girls accompany them....

        So...if God give some rules ....that isnot just for our time but for the past....and that isnot dogma, but for our own benefit...
        Human being isnot an animal....but khalifah.
        Last edited by be happy; 28-05-16, 16:18.
        [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

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        • Originally posted by be happy View Post
          Durian contain alcohol.....but if we eat lots, we willnot drunk....but our stomach will be hot, bloating, and we can't (sorry) fart....
          Yeah.... I'll let you believe that unfermented durian contain alcohol. As to the bloating, sure it's happened before to people who eat durian. But you'll never convince me that people can't fart after eating durian. At least not with some of the people I've eaten durian with.

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          • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
            I believe the Quran was written after Mohammed's death wasn't it,
            It was compiled after his death, during the reign of Uthman. Muslim tradition holds that Muhammad was illiterate and also Allah's conduit. He was the first to be GIVEN the Qur'an and to recite it to others.

            Modern scholarship opens more possibilities that the Qur'an predates Muhammad. Clearly this doesn't fit into Muslim beliefs, but it's a plausible story considering the way that religious texts are copied (see the Instruction of Amenemope ---> Proverbs, Epic of Gilgamesh ----> various parts of the Old Testament).

            Originally posted by Anglian View Post
            to me religion is a personnel thing, and really up to the individual to lead his life as he sees fit, if some one wants a beer,up to him, if they are some gods laws, then it's up to God to punish him, not some ignorant man,
            And it's not a personal thing to Muslims. We have been given our shari'a, our code and our law, and we enact it. Allah will punish them, their punishment is in this life and the hereafter. Islam places supreme importance on the implementation of justice.

            Originally posted by Anglian View Post
            why if alcohol is haram, have the Turks, Eygyptians, Morocan,Algerians,Albanians and many others brewing and wine making over the centuries, and they haven't been doing it for westerners, so why this sudden panic about alcohol, people keep flashing statistic that so many people die of alcohol related deaths, I feel these statistics are taken out of context, more blacks in America die by gunshot, sadly on the increase, the amount of deaths from alcohol, legal that is is very small compared to illegal alcohol, drug related deaths much hire, kids who don't drink use drugs, here's a daft thing about statistics, someone in the states discovered that the decrease in Roman Catholic clergy was proportional to the increase in the mouse population of California,so logically if we kill off half the mice the clergy has increased, has it. It seems to me and most contributors to this threadis that the only reason the ban is wanted is to control people, much like Acheh. Religion and politics don't work together, you only have to look at the Middle East to see the total shambles, the west I suppose could be blamed for some, but basically trying to run a country of religious dogma just doesn't work,
            The math is solid. Ignoring the math because it is inconvenient is not a valid response. As an example:

            Murders in the U.S. in 2013, 14,000

            https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc..._2012-2013.xls

            Alcohol related deaths? 88,000.

            https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-he...and-statistics

            Both are serious issues, both deserve attention and efforts to reduce their harm.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rabbit_39 View Post
              Yeah.... I'll let you believe that unfermented durian contain alcohol. As to the bloating, sure it's happened before to people who eat durian. But you'll never convince me that people can't fart after eating durian. At least not with some of the people I've eaten durian with.
              QUOTE=rabbit_39;486414]Yeah.... I'll let you believe that unfermented durian contain alcohol. As to the bloating, sure it's happened before to people who eat durian. But you'll never convince me that people can't fart after eating durian. At least not with some of the people I've eaten durian with.[/QUOTE]

              Have you ever got sick because of durian?
              I was a durian lover...and i got sick because of over dosis eating durian.
              The gas couldn't out from my body....and my stomach very sick...because of bloating and I felt hot. So my mother gave me many glasses of water....and must to spew it (sorry).
              After that...i could fart (sorry again...)...the gas could out...after I spewed the durians.

              After that....I feel."Kapok"....and only eating "secukupnya"
              [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

              Comment


              • Originally posted by be happy View Post
                Have you ever got sick because of durian?
                I was a durian lover...and i got sick because of over dosis eating durian.
                The gas couldn't out from my body....and my stomach very sick...because of bloating and I felt hot. So my mother gave me many glasses of water....and must to spew it (sorry).
                After that...i could fart (sorry again...)...the gas could out...after I spewed the durians.

                After that....I feel."Kapok"....and only eating "secukupnya"
                1. no, I have the self control that were taught by my parents to not over consume anything, not even water. So no I've never been sick because of durian.
                2. So because you got sick of durian that means there must be alcohol in durian? Because alcohol is evil and causes you to be sick, therefore when you got sick from eating durian it must be the alcohol. Okaaaayyyyyyy.....
                3. All you've proven with this post that despite of how religious you are, you have no self control and you over-indulge. Hmmm....I see a pattern emerging here.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rabbit_39 View Post
                  1. no, I have the self control that were taught by my parents to not over consume anything, not even water. So no I've never been sick because of durian.
                  2. So because you got sick of durian that means there must be alcohol in durian? Because alcohol is evil and causes you to be sick, therefore when you got sick from eating durian it must be the alcohol. Okaaaayyyyyyy.....
                  3. All you've proven with this post that despite of how religious you are, you have no self control and you over-indulge. Hmmm....I see a pattern emerging here.
                  1. I was kid when sick caused by durian
                  2. I didn't say that I was sick because of the alcohol in durian....but it because I was over dosis, and maybe the gas is came from the alcohol..or came from other materials in durian...
                  I just want to say...that durian isnot khamr even there is alcohol in it.

                  Have you ever heard "Tape".or "Peyeum" ?
                  In Bandung a lot of people selling Peyeum Bandung.
                  Tape or Peyeum contain alcohol. But tape/peyeum is halal. Because tape/peyeum isnot khamr.


                  But if you drink wine.....or beer....they are khamr.

                  Have you got the red line?


                  3. Hmmm....Negatif thinking....
                  Last edited by be happy; 28-05-16, 18:49.
                  [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

                  Comment


                  • Justice Dan is not a word you should bandy about in Indonesia, or anywhere else in the Muslim world,

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                    • Originally posted by Anglian View Post


                      I was told by an Arab friend there is no outright ban on alcohol, wine yes,
                      The English translation of the Qur'an that I use says that the believers are not to drink wine, should not gamble, and should not become intoxicated (drunk).

                      That is a translation from the Arabic and it (the translation, which is a very common and widely used one, or so it seems) produced the word "wine" from the Arabic term (al khamr). The Arabic term is said to be related to the verb meaning "to ferment". Other surah of the Qur'an refer to "sukara" which is translated as "intoxicated" (one must not attend to prayer while intoxicated, as mentioned above by Anglian). Well, there is a lot of sugar in alcohol to be sure.

                      In another surat, it is acknowledged that there is both good and evil in alcohol (I think this means concerning the effects of consumption, which could include both health "benefits", and social ones), but that "the evil is greater than the good". (Take a drive downtown to the skid rows of Los Angeles, or any big American city - to give just one example - and you may see why this is stated so.)

                      The madhabs have generally concluded that drinking any intoxicating alcoholic product is forbidden (haram) or at the least intensely disliked (makruh).

                      It does make sense that if wine (fermentable to different strengths, but generally around 9-14 %) is "out", then anything as potent as (to use an example from the region so often mentioned) arak (or Scotch, bourbon, vodka, gin, moonshine, etc) would definitely also be "out", right?

                      I personally (at least partly for admittedly selfish and personal reasons) feel and think that a reasonable case can be made for beer (in a "normal" range of strength, anyway, maybe not those superbrews from micros or malt liquors) as acceptable for consumption and enjoyment, provided one does so in definite moderation and does not get drunk from it. I understand that this view is not generally accepted (since beer is also fermented to produce alcohol content, and certainly can make one quite drunk), but it is also clearly true that many Muslim men in Indonesia (though relatively a very small percentage of the whole, I'm sure) do drink or at some time in their lives have had at least a beer or two now and then.

                      And as pointed out by another poster in this thread, many Muslims (though probably a much smaller percentage than in non-Muslim population groups) do suffer from drug addictions beyond alcohol (narcotics, opioids, shabu, etc). My wife and I are friends with a family who is being affected by such an addiction in a serious and almost heart-breaking way. There is no real logic in questioning the extent of the damages that addiction, to alcohol or to others as mentioned, does to the addicts, to their families and sometimes to others.

                      The fact that some Muslims do drink alcohol should not be taken as a sign that even Muslims actually think it is fine and acceptable: most Muslims don't, but all Muslims are human beings, and we break rules and sin just like Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and others (news flash!). Just as we know that adultery ("zina") is a big sin and is harmful, but there are many who do it anyway ... sin is human, and as my wife always says, "religion is not human".

                      The Qur'an sets out the rules for Muslims to follow and we are told to do so and to remind others to do so, to warn of the dangers and risks of not following them, but we are also given free will, which is crucial and all-important: otherwise, we would just be robotic machines.

                      In spite of what some (non-Muslims) here may claim, Muslims are allowed to question and debate almost anything (including what is said in Qur'an) ... in fact we are encouraged to do so in the Qur'an itself.

                      That does not mean that we are encouraged to feel free to change the rules, make new ones according to what we like (other than "what has been allowed cannot be forbidden") and basically just be "free spirits". We are encouraged to follow the rules made for us, as we should be.

                      Muslims believe that those rules are actually intended for all of humanity, whether all of humanity will accept them or not, just as Christians believe that Christ died for all of humanity, and that all souls can only be saved through Him.

                      I think that Ibu seems to be sincere in her intentions, as with Dolly, and not merely pandering (I won't vouch for other pols in general). I don't personally agree with or support outright alcohol bans in Indonesia, though I can understand and even appreciate, from one side, efforts to make it less easily available and limit sale and production. I think the ideal of Pancasila is very important to Indonesia, and I don't want to see it become an Islamic State (ahem). But if the politicians / legislators can get bans enacted and if the majority of the Indonesian people will support this, it will make little difference what foreigners think or how we feel about it.

                      Now, who wants to be the first to step up and accuse me of "preaching and brainwashing"? Anybody? Because, apparently, that's what it is whenever Muslims state their opinions here, or talk about what Islam says or what Muslims believe ... is that really such an imposition on anyone, I wonder?
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                      The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                      • Nice sensible response Mr B, alcoholism is a dreadful condition, I once met a famous enough Brit TV actor in a pub near Teddington TV studios, he had been married to the TV star Elsie Tanner in Coronation Street, he was also married to her in real life, most Brits will know who I'm taking about, I was lunch time, I had only popped in for a sandwich and a pint, anyway we got chatting he was really interesting and told me tales of his life and other famous TV and film personalitys, I had a one man show, he drank a whole bottle of gin to my 5 pints, we both left the pub really good friends, I promising to watch the TV play he was going to do at the TV studios that afternoon, the play was on a few days later, he played a Gestapo officer, I couldn't believe that he had consumed a bottle of gin, totally unbelievable, he died about 3 years later of alcoholism, as did the lady who played Elsie Tanner. My point alcoholics have a life, he enjoyed his to the full, certainly not all do, I knew two other alcoholics and there life was just an existence from one drink to another, but most drinkers aren't alcoholics,but do enjoy themselves, but the young black kids gunned down in what seems to be drug related gang wars, is really to me quite sad, the lost potential is enormous, whereas many alcoholics still carry on, I knew a chap, sober, a gibbering nervous wreck, two drinks, a normal confident chap, very strange.

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                        • Since being a member of this forum I've never seen much discussion on the Pope and Catholics, the meaning of the scriptures from Protestants, what the different celebrations of Bali Hindu is about and nothing from Buddhists...yet so many posts about how to interpret the Koran, and how many different ways to lead one's life, according to a book.
                          It seems to me almost apologetic that Muslims have to constantly explain to others their arguable interpretations of this book....apparently written about 1400 years ago...in Arabic.

                          My wife is Indonesian and Christian. She says when she was a schoolgirl her whole big family lived together with other religions, mainly Muslim, and there was no feeling of differences, or animosity, in her neighborhood. She recently visited her sister in Tangerang, who is a Protestant and attends a church in Jakarta, and says the religious tension in that neighborhood is palpable and the little girls all wear jilbab when, in her day, very few did...."something has changed"...she said "my sister doesn't even celebrate Xmas Eve in her own house any more....'coz she's afraid."

                          IMO what has changed is the original Constitution of Pancasila is slowly being eroded by emboldened conservative Muslims and preachers who want to replace Pancasila with Sharia...and they use every trick to achieve that. It will be a long-term process but the slippery slope has begun...witness nearly every law recently proposed by the religious parties in government...all to do with readings from the Koran and an attempt to change Law according to their Spiritual interpretation. I've so far not seen one proposal from them to assist Indonesia, as a country or its citizens, to achieve a better economic life.

                          I'm not alone in my opinion...I posted somewhere about an Indonesian education association being worried about the conservative spiritual teachings in some Muslim schools and advocating a more academic curriculum.

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                          • Davita, you sure not alone with your opinion, I 100% agree with what you write.

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                            • Sadly Davita, too true, it will all end in tears.

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                              • yap your right davita , in the last 8 years I have seen the more rapid radicalization in java , unfortunately the Pancasila is disappearing fast , this is hardly welcoming for tourism or investment. Indonesia is slowly strangling itself in a religious swamp !

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