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  • Originally posted by sunflower20 View Post
    i think for banning Tobaco was another issues. As i understand majority of muslims in Indonesia, they have never agree for banning of tobaco. they have a different meaning about tobacco rules from Islam precpective. Some imam said haram, some makruh and some said it's okay to consume tobaco. that's why the issues for banning tobaco was never succed and i bet it won't be a problem for majority of muslim in Indonesia.

    Back to alcohol. they are all agreed and know it's haram/prohibited based on Islam perspective...as u said if he is muslim, so he should not drink alcohol.

    [FONT=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][COLOR=#1d2129]And Davita about your comment #173 ....
    [/COLOR][/FONT]
    [COLOR=#333333]It was introduced by minority Islamic parties in government but [COLOR="#FF0000"]u should remember the majority of legislators are muslims and they know really clearly the rules about alcohol. the fact is, if they won't support the ban, so they will face the morality sanktion from majority of muslim. [/COLOR]
    That's why i m pretty shure it was not Islamist parties fault at all.

    And i agree with the article of jp that they also need to considerate to make a stricter control on alcohol in order to protect the younger generation or make more long education program about the effect of alcohol.

    In my opinion , that they are not ready yet for that's kind of regulations and strict rules for the young generations....it wasn't like in Europe or most western country, the young kids they can't buy alcohol and tobaco, if they go to the supermarket and ask for that kind of stuff, the seller or cashier will ask their id card or something like that.

    In Indonesia if the young kids comes to the small market like a small shop/warung, the seller will never ask how old are u or i guess they won't care as long as they can get benefits and sells their stuff.

    so....my opinion sadly it won't be happen because the budget are zero for that's kind of education.
    [/COLOR]
    Red highlights above has just confirmed all our accusations about Indonesia slowly changing from a Pancasila Constitution to a Sharia Muslim country. After banning alcohol what will be next ...ham and bacon, all women to wear jilbab? This has nothing to do with health of youth etc and everything to do with making the Gov't Sharia.

    I'm clearly older, and very probably more worldly than you, and have seen this before. It is a slippery slope to the disintegration of Indonesia back to many different countries... long before it was amalgamated into the Dutch East Indies.

    Sukarno, the first President of Indonesia and the great unifier, would turn in his grave...."Author Pramoedya Ananta Toer once wrote "Sukarno was the only Asian leader of the modern era able to unify people of such differing ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds without shedding a drop of blood."

    I suggets Indonesians, other than the dogmatic brainwashed fanatics, better find another Sukarno soon.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by sunflower20 View Post
      i tdon't think its a criminal for u and others who's consuming alcohol. i don't said in any my post that i agree for ban and force to other ppl who's consuming alcohol to not be a consume..... it's ur freedom and that's something i respect nd it's up to u...so feels free to drink a glass wine etc.
      Can we therefore take it that you say that there should be NO BAN of alcohol in Indonesia...Yes or No?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Davita View Post
        Red highlights above has just confirmed all our accusations about Indonesia slowly changing from a Pancasila Constitution to a Sharia Muslim country. After banning alcohol what will be next ...ham and bacon, all women to wear jilbab? This has nothing to do with health of youth etc and everything to do with making the Gov't Sharia.

        I'm clearly older, and very probably more worldly than you, and have seen this before. It is a slippery slope to the disintegration of Indonesia back to many different countries... long before it was amalgamated into the Dutch East Indies.

        Sukarno, the first President of Indonesia and the great unifier, would turn in his grave...."Author Pramoedya Ananta Toer once wrote "Sukarno was the only Asian leader of the modern era able to unify people of such differing ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds without shedding a drop of blood."

        I suggets Indonesians, other than the dogmatic brainwashed fanatics, better find another Sukarno soon.
        There was Prabowo, but he lost to Jokerwi in the last election.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sul1995 View Post
          There was Prabowo, but he lost to Jokerwi in the last election.
          Absolutely and why....this from Jakarta Globe at the time...

          "I respect Bu Mega," Prabowo said. "I want a united Indonesia, that's what I want… I don't understand what kind of [political] dynamic is happening here.
          Megawati and Prabowo had previously ran a losing campaign together in the 2009 presidential election. Later, in 2012, they linked up again, as their two parties formed a coalition that helped Joko secure the Jakarta governorship — a move many believed foreshadowed another political partnership for the 2014 presidential race.
          The political ties between Prabowo and Megawati soured soon after, however, after Megawati expressed anger with him for supposedly taking credit for Joko's victory in the capital.


          Megawati's party thereafter supported the now President Widodo. Such is the political will of Indonesians..they'd rather riot over a football game than try to find the right leadership to run their country and better their economic welfare and unity.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Davita View Post
            Absolutely and why....this from Jakarta Globe at the time...

            "I respect Bu Mega," Prabowo said. "I want a united Indonesia, that's what I want… I don't understand what kind of [political] dynamic is happening here.
            Megawati and Prabowo had previously ran a losing campaign together in the 2009 presidential election. Later, in 2012, they linked up again, as their two parties formed a coalition that helped Joko secure the Jakarta governorship — a move many believed foreshadowed another political partnership for the 2014 presidential race.
            The political ties between Prabowo and Megawati soured soon after, however, after Megawati expressed anger with him for supposedly taking credit for Joko's victory in the capital.


            Megawati's party thereafter supported the now President Widodo. Such is the political will of Indonesians..they'd rather riot over a football game than try to find the right leadership to run their country and better their economic welfare and unity.
            Nah, come on, that guy was just plain scary. I don't see the profit in having someone "unify" the country when their main agenda seems to just be snatch and keep as much power as possible. When I can see it on a man's face that the most, the only, important thing is to be "the big boss", then I don't want him to be my boss. I prefer politicians who will at least pretend to be normal human beings and care about their constituents (as opposed to just their fellow politicians).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Davita View Post
              Can we therefore take it that you say that there should be NO BAN of alcohol in Indonesia...Yes or No?
              my answer is clear..as the majority in here they can't force me to eat pork or drink alcohol just to prove them that i 'm integrated in this danish society.......I m also not agree to ban alcohol in Indonesia.

              but back to my other comment....the people are not ready yet, the system are not ready yet to have any affect for the influence and cost from harm of alcohol.

              Maybe for u, u can afford to go to the hospital in case u have a problem cause your drinking. or u can afford to do a therapy if in case something happen like car accidents cause one stupid indonesian don't have any knowledge for the risk if "u drive a car when u are drunk".

              The system not ready yet to delegate a police to measure the promille /the amount of alcohol while they do a razia...maybe if some one get cuts from that, they just ask the police to pay with rupiah..and that's it...finish...

              U can affort all the stuff cause u have an inshurance but how about the other poor ppl who can hardly pay their bill,etc. and consume alcohol.
              Last edited by sunflower20; 28-05-16, 00:34.
              [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
              [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
              [/FONT][/COLOR]

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
                Are you free to drink alcohol in Islam ?? Free to eat pork ?? free to ignore the daily prayers if you feel like it - no you're not, can you question it or make your own decision as a "Muslim" without running contrary to the teachings of Islam - no you cant. Therefore if you choose to drink alcohol or eat pork for example you are breaking the rules, simply as that, no negotiation no debate no questioning it that's the way it has to be if you want to be considered a "real Muslim" however the grey area discussed in a separate thread portrays a different picture in daily life.

                Freedom of choice.


                First of all, islam is a really concern forthe concept of freedom of choice. But the freedom of choice suppost tobe do not have impact to others freedom. As u said Islam prohibited severals things.no alcohol,pork,sex before marriage,etc.


                Islam isn't only concern with your self and your health. If you'r moslem, so your religion isn't your personal bussines, its mean also others business... seeks to benefits others too...concern with the others...that's definitions of Islam for what i understand.


                Let's say if this religion is a revelation from God....so i do believe for whatever God say, no need to ask why.


                For one case drink alcohol...Why not drinking alcohol, because religions also concern for u to look at ur health, look at to take care others ppl, while u are drinking andgetting drunk, so u can't have a clearly and can't do any areasenable thing in your life...such as we can see how mny ppl get ina car accident cause drinking alcohol ,etc..


                This is not the reason muslim not drink alcohol. Even if none of these problem of alcohol is not there....we will still not drink alcohol. What are our reason? God said No..thereal question why i do believe this is from GOD? This is my freedomof choice... i do decide to follow cause i believe in one God ( as i agree this is the first of our PANCASILA constitute).

                Let's say if i wrong and in the end of day, u are right...but i don't loose anything at all. I choose a healthy life by notdrink alcohol. And then i still capable to choose drink alcohol, eat pork etc in the end.

                But I believe, God being The Self-Sufficient is not in need of any of us. Rather, we are in need Him, as we are the created, and He is The Creator. If this point is instilled in the mind of an individual he/she finds a unique determination. So I do believe there is more to life than just drinking ,eat pork and party.


                But how about if u are wrong? What u will loose so? U can answer by yourself.


                And then for daily prayers...I choose to do this because this is my only way to contemplate and try to seek and ask for God to guide me if i have some problem to be solve. At leastagain i'm not do some a stupid stuff while i have a problem...

                .***
                Sorry this is out of the topic from the first thread...because Scooter post,so I have to reply him.
                Last edited by sunflower20; 28-05-16, 08:58.
                [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                [/FONT][/COLOR]

                Comment


                • God never said don't drink alcohol, Mohammad did,he got fed up with Arabs getting pissed as in the desert they had sod all else to do, I was told by an Arab friend there is no outright ban on alcohol, wine yes, being pissed at prayer time, the only reason the Saudis banned Alcohol some years back was because of a murder, the religious police jumped at the chance to screw the Saudis, the religious police would ban anything modern if they could, women driving, television, even music is banned. Most Islamic countries have developed Islam to suit their own culture, over the centuries this has worked well, but now with oil and their wealth the Saudis want everyone to embrace Wahhabism, most young Saudis I worked with hated it, not there religion, all had been to America and UK and wanted a more open society, but like Acheh the religious police clamp down on anything they thing will spoil or threaten the power over the people, I is a sad state of affairs when you have to have religious police to keep control of the masses, anyone having a normal meeting with his/ her friend is suspect of being lewd, walking hand in hand with ones partner is banned, but in Saudi men walk around hand in hand, and kiss each other on meeting, weird.
                  But back to alcohol it's just another ploy by religious zealots to control the masses, sounds silly but it's the thin edge of the wedge, this will lead to other things they consider unislamic, as in Acheh, the latest men cannot wear shorts, girls cannot sit astride motor cycles.

                  Comment


                  • God said in Qur'an "Don't drink Khamr"
                    Khamr is alcohol that fermented to be intoxicate liquid... (context, "khamr" made by people in the world).

                    Because God also said that in the paradise, people will drink khamr that not containing intoxicate material...so the people will never drunk if drink much "khamr" in the Paradise.

                    But fruit that contain alcohol like grape, orange, marquisa, durian, etc...all of them are halal. As long as those fruits arenot in juiced to fermented.

                    And about Syaria Law
                    In the first moslem society (when the prophet still alive), Syaria only for moslem.

                    If a moslem did criminal (killed someone)....he/she would be punished by the law in Qur'an, if "the family of the victim not forgive."
                    But if the family of the victim forgive the killer, he/she must pay the victim's family with amount of dinnar (gold money).

                    But...If a non moslem (Jew or Christian) did criminal, the prophet will ask the "Perwakilan Agama" of Jew/Christian to read the Torah. How is the law in Torah to punish a killer.
                    Last edited by be happy; 28-05-16, 11:03.
                    [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

                    Comment


                    • Anglian, I think u need to do some research in stead of u get info from ur arabs friends. And I m not fan of wahabism also....but there was a reason why Prophet Muhammad pbuh cames from Arab. And He is the messenger of God likes Isa who's sent to his ppl. So what Muhammad had been told and learned from the Quran (His Book).
                      P.s. Please, do some research abt that. Try to see on YouTube from Nouman Ali abt alcohol and gambling(oot).
                      [COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                      [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]The road doesn't go where you planned. It goes where it's written to be[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1D2129][FONT=helvetica]
                      [/FONT][/COLOR]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by be happy View Post
                        But fruit that contain alcohol like grape, orange, marquisa, durian, etc...all of them are halal. As long as those fruits arenot in juiced to fermented.
                        Ummm fruit don't contain alcohol until they rot and ferment naturally.

                        Comment


                        • I believe the Quran was written after Mohammed's death wasn't it, to me religion is a personnel thing, and really up to the individual to lead his life as he sees fit, if some one wants a beer,up to him, if they are some gods laws, then it's up to God to punish him, not some ignorant man, why if alcohol is haram, have the Turks, Eygyptians, Morocan,Algerians,Albanians and many others brewing and wine making over the centuries, and they haven't been doing it for westerners, so why this sudden panic about alcohol, people keep flashing statistic that so many people die of alcohol related deaths, I feel these statistics are taken out of context, more blacks in America die by gunshot, sadly on the increase, the amount of deaths from alcohol, legal that is is very small compared to illegal alcohol, drug related deaths much hire, kids who don't drink use drugs, here's a daft thing about statistics, someone in the states discovered that the decrease in Roman Catholic clergy was proportional to the increase in the mouse population of California,so logically if we kill off half the mice the clergy has increased, has it. It seems to me and most contributors to this threadis that the only reason the ban is wanted is to control people, much like Acheh. Religion and politics don't work together, you only have to look at the Middle East to see the total shambles, the west I suppose could be blamed for some, but basically trying to run a country of religious dogma just doesn't work,
                          Last edited by Anglian; 28-05-16, 11:29.

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                          • Re: Anglian post #222

                            HEAR! HEAR! Well said...especially the last sentence...you've hit the nail on its head and no amount of preaching/brainwashing from our forum Muslims will ever change that.

                            Comment


                            • Correlations are often used by those wanting to brainwash the masses. Higher education does not mean that person has the necessary experience nor knowledge nor drive to be a critical thinker. Nor does higher education make someone more intelligent.

                              An intelligent person is also a critical thinker and would make sure that the correlations they're presented with are actual causations of the subject(s) at hand.

                              Comment


                              • Let's look at a some religious states, Isreal, the only thing keeping Isreal going is the amount of cash supplied by the US, Saudi Arabia, the only thing going is their oil revenue, they buy of their inhabitants, this is the Arab way to keep people quiet, Pakistan, so busy fighting amongst themselves and relying on cash hand outs from the states, you could mention every state were Islam predominates, just cannot get their acts together, oddly a country I would also include Tibet, so busy praying they didn't see the Chinese come through the back door, oh Bangladesh, a Muslim country usually overlooked, what a shite hole, again, religious strife preventing any real movement forward, could also invclude Eire, initially on independence held back by the Catholic Church, much improved of late. So all you Muslim moaners, just stop whining, think of all the other ways you can die, suicide bomber, plane crash, car crash, train crash, motor cycle, cigarettes, drugs,just crossing the road at BSD is a chance, why are you all so worried about dieing, just think how lucky you are, if you were a black man in Chicago your chances of making old age aren't too good, the problem not alcohol but drugs
                                Last edited by Anglian; 28-05-16, 13:10.

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