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  • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    I understand the desire to reduce the harm alcohol causes, it's a public health issue and a significant drain on economies rather than some fabulous economic miracle. 2.5 million dead people a year who produce no capital along with all those lost work hours and the *lucky* ones who were merely maimed definitely offset the economic activity it generates.

    But the way to prevent its consumption needs to be education rather than heavy handed tactics. Yes, we should ban alcohol advertisements for the same reason we limit them for cigarettes, yes, we should place heavy taxes on alcoholic products to offset its burdensome social costs, yes, we should place greater emphasis on pursuit and prosecution of impaired motorists, yes, we should acknowledge the role alcohol plays in domestic violence, rape and assault... but we still should be cautious about outright banning it.

    It would be best if it could remain legal yet completely unattractive to consumers.
    No...not more taxes.

    How about just banning the sale of alcohol to MUSLIMS? If someone's KTP (ID) shows they're Muslim then its tough luck buddy you can't buy alcohol anywhere.

    My understanding is this is done in other officially Muslim countries and Indonesia is officially secular, except in Aceh

    Comment


    • Untuk bulan Ramadhan....
      Memang ada larangan untuk peredaran miras.
      Karena di bulan ini muslim berpuasa....
      Ini untuk memberikan kesan tersendiri di bulan itu....dan muslim yg nakal pun, akan segan untuk minum alkohol di depan umum....
      Ini pun sebenarnya untuk mendidik anak-anak, agar di bulan Ramadhan ini anak-anak terkondisikan dengan lingkungan yang baik....setelah 11 bulan sebelumnya mereka melihat kemungkaran dan maksiat dimana-mana.

      Maksiatnya libur sejenak deh...hitung-hitung untuk detok tubuh setelah 11 bulan tersentuh barang haram.
      Paling tidak....pemuda-pemuda yang biasa mabuk dan nongkrong-nongkrong minum alkohol di warung atau pun bar, mereka jadi ikutan terkondisikan dengan suasana Ramadhan, mereka jadi malu untuk terang-terangan berbuat maksiat...
      Paling tidak....dibulan Ramadhan mereka bisa mengurangi konsumsi alkohol.

      Kalau seandainya itu tidak ada pengaruh bagi mereka....ya tidak apa-apa. Yang penting kita sudah berusaha untuk membuat mereka libur sejenak dari barang haram...

      Ya kalau kalian memiliki hati nurani untuk memperbaiki keadaan pemuda-pemuda yang salah jalan di Indonesia, ya coba kalian juga memberikan mereka contoh yang baik....minimal 1 bulan ikutan mereka untuk tidak minum alkohol.

      Karena jika kalian diperbolehkan minum alkohol, mereka pemuda-pemuda ini akan protes, "Mentang-mentang bule dibolehin minum alkohol. Giliran kita nggak boleh. Gak adil ini namanya." Mereka akan berpikir begitu....
      [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tihzho View Post
        No...not more taxes.

        How about just banning the sale of alcohol to MUSLIMS? If someone's KTP (ID) shows they're Muslim then its tough luck buddy you can't buy alcohol anywhere.

        My understanding is this is done in other officially Muslim countries and Indonesia is officially secular, except in Aceh
        Might be a few re conversions, only saying.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by be happy View Post
          Karena jika kalian diperbolehkan minum alkohol, mereka pemuda-pemuda ini akan protes, "Mentang-mentang bule dibolehin minum alkohol. Giliran kita nggak boleh. Gak adil ini namanya." Mereka akan berpikir begitu....
          That thinking is no different during Ramadan versus the other 11 months of the year. It is not the responsibility of non-Muslims to be a good example of Muslim living, that is the job of their parents and religious leaders to be the example and teachers.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tihzho View Post
            No...not more taxes.

            How about just banning the sale of alcohol to MUSLIMS? If someone's KTP (ID) shows they're Muslim then its tough luck buddy you can't buy alcohol anywhere.

            My understanding is this is done in other officially Muslim countries and Indonesia is officially secular, except in Aceh
            I agree not more taxes - the taxes on alcohol are already high enough as they are, and already make alcohol unaffordable for many Indonesians. The problem is, people want to drink, and they will. If they can't afford it, they will be more likely to buy cheap dangerous stuff and poison themselves.

            Bannning alcohol altogether is a highly dangerous move that will lead to many more deaths and production of dangerous drinks.

            As for banning the sale of alcohol to Muslims, that is not fair, as in the real world many Muslims do drink, and at the end of the day it is up to them as an individual whether they want to or not. Not up to someone to decide for them.

            The main problem with alcohol in Indonesia is the consumption of dangerous alcohol, made by people who don't know/care what they are doing and sold cheap. The lack of education needs to be fixed. People need to be educated about the risks from drinking too much alcohol, and how dangerous it is to drink something that has been sold cheaply, with no idea what is in it.

            There also needs to be some more education about home brewing, because no matter what people say, people want to drink. If people are taught how to brew beer/cider at home safely, then they are more likely to do that than buy some poisonous stuff and kill themselves or make themselves seriously ill.

            There is nothing wrong or dangerous with someone having a glass of wine with a meal, a cold beer in the afternoon or a glass of a nice single malt Scotch Whisky. People can be educated about drinking in moderation, like they are in places like the UK, Europe, USA and Australia.

            Banning alcoholic drinks altogether is just stupid, and whoever has come up with that idea needs to be given help and education fast, as they will put many peoples lives in danger.

            Of course underage drinking is wrong, but can easily be stopped by having to produce ID as it is in other countries.

            There seems to be this idea that drinking alcohol means getting completely wasted. However drinking in moderation causes no problems at all and it is very sociable.

            Also from my experience in the UK, the people who go out and are violent after drinking, are people who have a troubled upbringing or past - they are letting all their anger out. Most people who go out drinking, do it for enjoyment and laugh and dance with other people. Alcohol does not make a happy person who has had a perfect life go out and beat someone up.

            Many people get very drunk because they are frustrated with their lives and it is kind of a release - how about fixing the problems that make them feel like that?

            People need to be taught about the harm alcohol can do, and let them decide for themselves if they want to drink.

            On a side note, the ban would affect me, as although I don't actually live in Surabaya itself, Juanda is my local airport, and I like to bring a bottle of Scotch Whisky back from the UK after a visit there. But I can't see everyones duty free and other alcohol being confiscated on arrival at the airport, surely?

            In short, the idea of a total alcohol ban is INSANE. Education, education education.....that is the answer.
            Last edited by tokektokek; 25-05-16, 20:20. Reason: I managed to make a silly mistake of writing affordable instead of unaffordable.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by R Cameron View Post
              That thinking is no different during Ramadan versus the other 11 months of the year. It is not the responsibility of non-Muslims to be a good example of Muslim living, that is the job of their parents and religious leaders to be the example and teachers.
              Exactly, and it is up to the individual if they want to fast and not drink alcohol. Making them unable to break the fast or drink, defeats the purpose.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
                Exactly, and it is up to the individual if they want to fast and not drink alcohol. Making them unable to break the fast or drink, defeats the purpose.
                Memang benar....
                Tapi memberikan lingkungan yang baik untuk anak-anak kan baik juga.

                Karena manusia itu melakukan suatu amalan atau perbuatan tergantung teman duduknya dan lingkungannya.

                Jika di rumah sudah dididik dengan baik.....tapi mereka melihat hal yang kontradiksi dengan yang diajarkan orang tuanya, banyak diantara mereka menjadi berpikir bahwa kebaikan yang diajarkan orangtuanya hanyalah dogma.

                Jika tak kuat iman....mereka akan ikut arus, mengikuti hal yang buruk.

                Bagi kami yang beragama...mengajarkan anak 'Takut akan Tuhan' itu sangat penting.

                Bagi kalian yang tak percaya Tuhan itu ada.....kalian tentu tak akan mengajari anak takut akan Tuhan.

                Tapi dampaknya akan kalian rasakan ketika kalian telah tua atau tak berdaya.....jika anak-anak kalian ikut arus sama seperti kebanyakan manusia di sekitarnya yang masa bodoh

                dan mereka sama hal tak ada kepercayaan terhadap Tuhan, maka bisa saja ketika besar mereka akan menelantarkan kalian.....tidak peduli pada kalian, karena tokh tidak peduli pada orangtua pun bukan suatu hal yang dosa...tak akan ada yang menghukum dia baik di dunia apalagi di akhirat, krn dia tidak percaya itu semua.

                Jadi mengapa alkohol dihentikan di bulan Ramadhan....untuk mengkondisikan anak-anak agar mereka bisa berpuasa juga dengan baik...mendidik anak-anak dengan suasana yang lebih baik...krn 11 bulan sebelumnya mereka selalu melihat kemaksiatan dimana-mana...
                Kalau mereka menjadi anak yang baik, shaleh, berbakti pada orangtua.....kita juga yang akan merasakan dari kebaikan-kebaikan anak kita...
                Last edited by be happy; 25-05-16, 21:15.
                [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

                Comment


                • Originally posted by be happy View Post
                  Karena jika kalian diperbolehkan minum alkohol, mereka pemuda-pemuda ini akan protes, "Mentang-mentang bule dibolehin minum alkohol. Giliran kita nggak boleh. Gak adil ini namanya." Mereka akan berpikir begitu....
                  So you finish your thoughts with "it's not fair if the foreigners get to drink and the muslim kiddies don't"... are you really going to talk about fairness? Why is it fair for you to force those kiddies to do what you want them to in the first place? How is it fair for you to force your religious taboos on any of us? Would it be fair for us to ban beef because hindus don't eat it? Should hindu mothers come on and tell us that their children say "it isn't fair that the muslims get to eat meat and I don't"? The main point I am trying to make here is that you seem to think that your own beliefs trump ours. They don't. There is no reason why we should want to agree to give up our freedom so that you can feel happy about your beliefs.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by be happy View Post
                    Memang benar....
                    Tapi memberikan lingkungan yang baik untuk anak-anak kan baik juga.

                    Karena manusia itu melakukan suatu amalan atau perbuatan tergantung teman duduknya dan lingkungannya.

                    Jika di rumah sudah dididik dengan baik.....tapi mereka melihat hal yang kontradiksi dengan yang diajarkan orang tuanya, banyak diantara mereka menjadi berpikir bahwa kebaikan yang diajarkan orangtuanya hanyalah dogma.

                    Jika tak kuat iman....mereka akan ikut arus, mengikuti hal yang buruk.

                    Bagi kami yang beragama...mengajarkan anak 'Takut akan Tuhan' itu sangat penting.

                    Bagi kalian yang tak percaya Tuhan itu ada.....kalian tentu tak akan mengajari anak takut akan Tuhan.

                    Tapi dampaknya akan kalian rasakan ketika kalian telah tua atau tak berdaya.....jika anak-anak kalian ikut arus sama seperti kebanyakan manusia di sekitarnya yang masa bodoh

                    dan mereka sama hal tak ada kepercayaan terhadap Tuhan, maka bisa saja ketika besar mereka akan menelantarkan kalian.....tidak peduli pada kalian, karena tokh tidak peduli pada orangtua pun bukan suatu hal yang dosa...tak akan ada yang menghukum dia baik di dunia apalagi di akhirat, krn dia tidak percaya itu semua.

                    Jadi mengapa alkohol dihentikan di bulan Ramadhan....untuk mengkondisikan anak-anak agar mereka bisa berpuasa juga dengan baik...mendidik anak-anak dengan suasana yang lebih baik...krn 11 bulan sebelumnya mereka selalu melihat kemaksiatan dimana-mana... 1
                    Please just put this stuff through google translate or something before you post it.

                    Comment


                    • To continue Happyman's thought, it's bizarre to think that teaching your children values would be dependent on something like what outsiders do. While my son was growing up, I tried to teach him to be honest. Does that mean he never saw anyone be dishonest? Of course not. But I had enough faith (heh) in my own beliefs that I could emphasize to him that honesty is the right choice, regardless of what others do. I had, and still have, a well-thought-out ethical framework by which I try to lead my life. Ergo, I am capable of sharing that framework with my child so that he too is equipped to think for himself about what is right and wrong.

                      If be happy believes she can't teach her children that drinking alcohol is wrong as long as there are others in the world who drink, then I don't think she has much religious/moral certainty to share with her children. Seriously - if she doesn't have any moral reasoning to share with her children (and surely she must!), can't she just say, "Because Allah says 'don't drink' and although not everyone follows what Allah says, we are Muslims and that's what we must do'"? That kind of reductiveness wouldn't work for me, but then, I'm not religious.
                      Last edited by Puspawarna; 26-05-16, 06:37. Reason: punctuation lapses

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                        So you finish your thoughts with "it's not fair if the foreigners get to drink and the muslim kiddies don't"... are you really going to talk about fairness? Why is it fair for you to force those kiddies to do what you want them to in the first place? How is it fair for you to force your religious taboos on any of us? Would it be fair for us to ban beef because hindus don't eat it? Should hindu mothers come on and tell us that their children say "it isn't fair that the muslims get to eat meat and I don't"? The main point I am trying to make here is that you seem to think that your own beliefs trump ours. They don't. There is no reason why we should want to agree to give up our freedom so that you can feel happy about your beliefs.
                        I never say kiddies....pemuda is "young man"
                        [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
                          I agree not more taxes - the taxes on alcohol are already high enough as they are, and already make alcohol unaffordable for many Indonesians. The problem is, people want to drink, and they will. If they can't afford it, they will be more likely to buy cheap dangerous stuff and poison themselves.

                          The main problem with alcohol in Indonesia is the consumption of dangerous alcohol, made by people who don't know/care what they are doing and sold cheap. The lack of education needs to be fixed. People need to be educated about the risks from drinking too much alcohol, and how dangerous it is to drink something that has been sold cheaply, with no idea what is in it.
                          A high price is used as incentive to not drink. Remember this: alcohol is a net loss for the country, not a net gain. The goal should be to discourage its consumption rather than to facilitate its use. Tax dollars can be used to offset the damaging costs, to foster the education you're speaking of. There will always be people too poor to afford booze, increasing tax dollars is primarily aimed at subsidizing its costs.

                          Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
                          There also needs to be some more education about home brewing, because no matter what people say, people want to drink. If people are taught how to brew beer/cider at home safely, then they are more likely to do that than buy some poisonous stuff and kill themselves or make themselves seriously ill.

                          There is nothing wrong or dangerous with someone having a glass of wine with a meal, a cold beer in the afternoon or a glass of a nice single malt Scotch Whisky. People can be educated about drinking in moderation, like they are in places like the UK, Europe, USA and Australia.
                          And yet the countries and continents you mention have some of the highest rates of mortality and morbidity from alcohol consumption and all are deeply sick with an ingrained "culture" of drinking. Indonesia largely does not have this problem because its people are not only Muslim, they also don't know of/see the appeal of drinking. Encouraging such behavior, including through well-meaning programs to teach "how to hooch," is NOT the way to go.

                          White people like to think there's really nothing wrong with a "responsible" level of drinking. That responsibility is primarily a product of good policy planning and enforcement, not because European cultures and their colonial offshoots have refined drinking habits.

                          Whenever alcohol has been introduced into a new society, the local population has had a hard time addressing its harm. Consider various indigenous peoples, especially American Indians and Australian aborigines, and then think how a widespread acceptance of alcohol would impact Indonesians. There is a biological element to this beyond your premise of refined drinking habits.

                          Certain peoples cannot process alcohol as well as others. In the case of American Indians, they lack an enzyme for breaking down alcohol. There really is no safe or moderate or responsible level of drinking for them. I suspect that something similar may be true of many Indonesians, particularly Melanesians.

                          Comment


                          • This thread's title is about the by-law in Surabaya but it has expanded into the central Jakarta Government's proposal banning alcohol throughout the nation.
                            This proposition was introduced by the minority Muslim parties under the guise of protecting Indonesian youth.... but anyone, not brainwashed, can see it is to dictate Muslim idealogy and dogma on the 36 million non-muslim citizens.... that's about the population of Canada and over 10 million more people than all of Australia.
                            The proposal as written, if passed, could lead to confidence and renewed power to the Muslim parties and a slippery slope to Sharia replacing Pancasila.... which would slide Indonesia into disintegration.
                            A very scary future for foreign investors to analyse...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
                              To continue Happyman's thought, it's bizarre to think that teaching your children values would be dependent on something like what outsiders do. While my son was growing up, I tried to teach him to be honest. Does that mean he never saw anyone be dishonest? Of course not. But I had enough faith (heh) in my own beliefs that I could emphasize to him that honesty is the right choice, regardless of what others do. I had, and still have, a well-thought-out ethical framework by which I try to lead my life. Ergo, I am capable of sharing that framework with my child so that he too is equipped to think for himself about what is right and wrong.

                              If be happy believes she can't teach her children that drinking alcohol is wrong as long as there are others in the world who drink, then I don't think she has much religious/moral certainty to share with her children. Seriously - if she doesn't have any moral reasoning to share with her children (and surely she must!), can't she just say "Because Allah says 'don't drink and although not everyone follows what Allah says, we are Muslims and that's what we must do'"? That kind of reductiveness wouldn't work for me, but then, I'm not religious.

                              Saya mengajari anak saya untuk.menjauhi alkohol...dengan.memberikan banyak alasan.

                              Saya katakan, dalam pengalaman hidup saya bergaul dengan orang yang sering minum alkohol....mereka akan rentan terhadap nilai2 baik yang lainnya.
                              Misal, mereka akan mudah melakukan perbuatan yang tidak baik antara laki-laki dan perempuan (maksud sy freesex).
                              Contoh lain, dengan suka minum alkohol....akan membuat kita malas untuk ibadah. Shalat jadi malas....
                              Contoh lain, jika suka minum alkohol.....orang akan lebih mudah lari pada alkohol jika ia sedang dalam masalah yang berat. Sedangkan kita harus lari pd Allah jika kita punya berbagai masalah, apalagi jika masalah berat....
                              Itu hanya sedikit contoh yang saya ajarkan pada anak
                              Last edited by be happy; 25-05-16, 22:02.
                              [FONT=comic sans ms]"The body needs food, the souls needs Zikr, the mind needs fikr, and the heart should always be doing shukr"[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms][/FONT]

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by be happy View Post
                                Memang benar....
                                Tapi memberikan lingkungan yang baik untuk anak-anak kan baik juga.

                                Karena manusia itu melakukan suatu amalan atau perbuatan tergantung teman duduknya dan lingkungannya.

                                Jika di rumah sudah dididik dengan baik.....tapi mereka melihat hal yang kontradiksi dengan yang diajarkan orang tuanya, banyak diantara mereka menjadi berpikir bahwa kebaikan yang diajarkan orangtuanya hanyalah dogma.

                                Jika tak kuat iman....mereka akan ikut arus, mengikuti hal yang buruk.

                                Bagi kami yang beragama...mengajarkan anak 'Takut akan Tuhan' itu sangat penting.

                                Bagi kalian yang tak percaya Tuhan itu ada.....kalian tentu tak akan mengajari anak takut akan Tuhan.

                                Tapi dampaknya akan kalian rasakan ketika kalian telah tua atau tak berdaya.....jika anak-anak kalian ikut arus sama seperti kebanyakan manusia di sekitarnya yang masa bodoh

                                dan mereka sama hal tak ada kepercayaan terhadap Tuhan, maka bisa saja ketika besar mereka akan menelantarkan kalian.....tidak peduli pada kalian, karena tokh tidak peduli pada orangtua pun bukan suatu hal yang dosa...tak akan ada yang menghukum dia baik di dunia apalagi di akhirat, krn dia tidak percaya itu semua.

                                Jadi mengapa alkohol dihentikan di bulan Ramadhan....untuk mengkondisikan anak-anak agar mereka bisa berpuasa juga dengan baik...mendidik anak-anak dengan suasana yang lebih baik...krn 11 bulan sebelumnya mereka selalu melihat kemaksiatan dimana-mana...
                                Kalau mereka menjadi anak yang baik, shaleh, berbakti pada orangtua.....kita juga yang akan merasakan dari kebaikan-kebaikan anak kita...
                                Moderator note: please avoid writing full posts in Indonesian as not all our members are fluent enough to understand. Especially since this thread has been started in English, please continue in English. Thank you.

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