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Surabaya to become alcohol free city

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  • Originally posted by be happy View Post
    It's only for a month, only on public places like warung, bar...

    It's only alcohol....you willnot die if you don't drink it for a while
    You might have misunderstood the story.It is not about a ban for 1 month.

    It is wrong of you to assume we are interested in this ban because we think we will all "die if we don't drink". I haven't had a drink in Indonesia for about half a year, I'd guess. For me the issue is that these people want to legislate morality, based on their own religious dogma. They want to tell me that I can't drink... but they have no good excuse to do so. It's about the government imposing morals upon me, not about the alcohol.

    Addit: How would you feel in a religious group wanted to ban people from eating meat in the area where you live? Eating excessive amounts of it is bad for you. The production and consumption of meat contributes to famine, health problems (including the emergence of antibiotic resistant germs), degradation of the ecosystem, poverty, etc. The world would clearly be a better place without it. Are you going to support a ban on it? Not even for your family? Yeah, I probably wouldn't either, even with a bunch of good reasons to do so.

    If you want to tell me I'm not allowed to do something you should have a good reason for it. Your religion isn't a good reason (for me).
    Last edited by Happyman; 24-05-16, 16:59. Reason: I adddited after Davita started the post below mine.

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    • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
      You might have misunderstood the story.It is not about a ban for 1 month.

      It is wrong of you to assume we are interested in this ban because we think we will all "die if we don't drink". I haven't had a drink in Indonesia for about half a year, I'd guess. For me the issue is that these people want to legislate morality, based on their own religious dogma. They want to tell me that I can't drink... but they have no good excuse to do so. It's about the government imposing morals upon me, not about the alcohol.
      Totally agree with you happyman but I'd go further to say it is the fanatic Muslim elements in government that wants to impose their 'so called' morals...pressuring other moderates to follow and vote.
      The Constitution of the Republic is based on the five principles of pancasila but many have witnessed the gradual tearing apart of those principles towards a sharia based country.
      Banning alcohol is just the one of those efforts...as soon as that's done they'll start on something else.
      Last edited by Davita; 24-05-16, 16:56.

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      • Originally posted by be happy View Post
        It's only alcohol....you willnot die if you don't drink it for a while
        You won't die if you let people live their life and sip a glass ya know...

        As I said earlier the whole ban thing is just hypocrisy and you know as well as me that this ban, if it ever occurs, will be only very selectively enforced. Police, like many commodities, has a price and it is often cheaper than a bottle of fine stuff.

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        • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
          You might have misunderstood the story.It is not about a ban for 1 month.

          It is wrong of you to assume we are interested in this ban because we think we will all "die if we don't drink". I haven't had a drink in Indonesia for about half a year, I'd guess. For me the issue is that these people want to legislate morality, based on their own religious dogma. They want to tell me that I can't drink... but they have no good excuse to do so. It's about the government imposing morals upon me, not about the alcohol.

          Addit: How would you feel in a religious group wanted to ban people from eating meat in the area where you live? Eating excessive amounts of it is bad for you. The production and consumption of meat contributes to famine, health problems (including the emergence of antibiotic resistant germs), degradation of the ecosystem, poverty, etc. The world would clearly be a better place without it. Are you going to support a ban on it? Not even for your family? Yeah, I probably wouldn't either, even with a bunch of good reasons to do so.

          If you want to tell me I'm not allowed to do something you should have a good reason for it. Your religion isn't a good reason (for me).
          I tend to agree with your statement
          But then I tend to lean on, that most Indonesians consider bules to be guest in there country
          right or wrong government's tend to impose laws for there citizens in mind
          “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one.”

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          • Originally posted by Bintang15 View Post
            I tend to agree with your statement
            But then I tend to lean on, that most Indonesians consider bules to be guest in there country
            right or wrong government's tend to impose laws for there citizens in mind
            True Bintang, but the people dyeing are Indonesians drinking crap liquor, over the years and many deaths the authorities have done nothing, and this ban will still do nothing, they occasionally smash a few bottles and thing the jobs due rather than attacking the source, banning legal alcohol does nothing probably causing some drinkers to seek out illegal hooch, so problem not solved.

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            • Originally posted by Bintang15 View Post
              I tend to agree with your statement
              But then I tend to lean on, that most Indonesians consider bules to be guest in there country
              right or wrong government's tend to impose laws for there citizens in mind
              Hmmm. I know I'm not a real constituent, just a permanent resident, but I will still be effected by the choices of the lawmakers, will still be taxed to pay for their decisions.

              The logic behind imposing a ban on something should be that it does sufficient public harm to justify infringing upon the personal liberties of that public. If we could quantify those standards, make clear the amount of public harm and degree of infringement upon liberty, wouldn't we be able to arrive at a universal model? I mean, what is the difference, if you are promoting the public good of/infringing upon Indonesians vs Americans vs Chinese? Do you think that Indonesians who arer infringed upon will mind it less? If it is a matter of scale... "few Indonesians drink, therefore few Indonesians will mind", then we should also have the same scale, "few Indonesians drink, therefore little public harm will be prevented".

              I do feel like I am missing something in your post, and have not answered it... but I can't figure out what it is, just a nagging feeling that I didn't consider something.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
                True Bintang, but the people dyeing are Indonesians drinking crap liquor, over the years and many deaths the authorities have done nothing, and this ban will still do nothing, they occasionally smash a few bottles and thing the jobs due rather than attacking the source, banning legal alcohol does nothing probably causing some drinkers to seek out illegal hooch, so problem not solved.
                I've bout beer from roadside herbal medicine shops a couple/few times since the mini-market ban started. Not sure if Io got fake stuff or poor storage or what, but I managed to wind up with a hangover headache within an hour of opening a bottle each time. The little shop doubtlessly selling beer illegally is 15 meters from the mini-market and I'd bet my hat I could send my five year old there to buy beer right now.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bintang15 View Post
                  I tend to agree with your statement
                  But then I tend to lean on, that most Indonesians consider bules to be guest in there country
                  right or wrong government's tend to impose laws for there citizens in mind
                  This has nothing to do with bule vv WNI. There are at least 260 million Indonesians and over 36 million aren't Muslim. This proposed banning law is a product of Muslim haram. It was introduced by minority Islamic parties in government. The Constitution of the land is Pancasila and the majority of legislators are Muslim but don't belong to Islamic parties. That is why I highlighted a previous post as it's obvious that many Islamists are putting pressure on their Muslim colleagues to vote ahead of Rahmadan...clearly to blackmail their piety.

                  "Islamic parties have proposed legislation that would reportedly ban the sale, production, distribution and consumption of all beverages with more than one percent of alcohol. Furthermore, those caught violating the regulations would face up to two years in prison and a hefty fine." Tha Diplomat

                  So far no-one in the Gov't has proposed what they will do with the reportedly over 200,000 employees directly employed in the industry and the Companies that will face bankruptcy...never mind those that will be peripherally affected.

                  Hopefully common sense will prevail and the proposal rejected. Then serious legislators can work on a system of 'harm reduction' along the lines that Dan in Aceh explained on this thread.

                  Comment


                  • 200,000 out of work, probably on piss poor salaries to start with, what jobs will they do, I suppose the government will organise retraining schemes like they did for the pros at dolly, learning to knit or needle work , brilliant.

                    They backed off pretty quick a while back when it was suggested banning Tobaco, the workers got a bit irate and threatens demos,
                    Last edited by Anglian; 24-05-16, 21:00.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
                      True Bintang, but the people dyeing are Indonesians drinking crap liquor, over the years and many deaths the authorities have done nothing, and this ban will still do nothing, they occasionally smash a few bottles and thing the jobs due rather than attacking the source, banning legal alcohol does nothing probably causing some drinkers to seek out illegal hooch, so problem not solved.
                      oh I totally agree dos zero for solving the problem
                      but most governments never solve problems , they just place bandages on the problems

                      then turn around and say see we are doing something about that Ya
                      “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                        Hmmm. I know I'm not a real constituent, just a permanent resident, but I will still be effected by the choices of the lawmakers, will still be taxed to pay for their decisions.

                        The logic behind imposing a ban on something should be that it does sufficient public harm to justify infringing upon the personal liberties of that public. If we could quantify those standards, make clear the amount of public harm and degree of infringement upon liberty, wouldn't we be able to arrive at a universal model? I mean, what is the difference, if you are promoting the public good of/infringing upon Indonesians vs Americans vs Chinese? Do you think that Indonesians who arer infringed upon will mind it less? If it is a matter of scale... "few Indonesians drink, therefore few Indonesians will mind", then we should also have the same scale, "few Indonesians drink, therefore little public harm will be prevented".

                        I do feel like I am missing something in your post, and have not answered it... but I can't figure out what it is, just a nagging feeling that I didn't consider something.
                        the point that I was trying to make is basic
                        All over the world majority impose there will on minority

                        right or wrong isn't the issue

                        Indonesia is a Muslim country I feel that as a Muslim national some feel that what they consider the evils of other nations have lend there young astray
                        they blame alcohol, drugs etc for a lot, this of course is my thoughts
                        thus alcohol is used as the evil child,
                        control the evil child and the problems will go away (the myth)
                        It is less costly to the government if they ban alcohol, than a long running education program
                        “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Anglian View Post
                          200,000 out of work, probably on piss poor salaries to start with, what jobs will they do, I suppose the government will organise retraining schemes like they did for the pros at dolly, learning to knit or needle work , brilliant.
                          This is also a fact that's over looked - don't forget the revenue also generated by the import duty imposed by the government on imported spirits, that must run to millions of dollars a year. Then add the loss of tourism, after all who wants to go to SBY if you cant drink there - great place for a holiday this will in turn affect the hotel industry. Then you have everyone that works within the brewing industry from factory workers to bar staff to the delivery drivers.

                          Time and time again we hear about how Indonesia want to attract tourists and foreign investment and then they pull a stroke like this to curtail to the fanatics like a bunch of limp dicks. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot economically, surely they cant be so fucking dumb as to not realise the implications of their decision.

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                          • Just to add to the 200,000 is the families and small business, shops etc which rely on a salary coming in and customers who have a job many many thousands more

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                            • Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
                              This is also a fact that's over looked - don't forget the revenue also generated by the import duty imposed by the government on imported spirits, that must run to millions of dollars a year. Then add the loss of tourism, after all who wants to go to SBY if you cant drink there - great place for a holiday this will in turn affect the hotel industry. Then you have everyone that works within the brewing industry from factory workers to bar staff to the delivery drivers.

                              Time and time again we hear about how Indonesia want to attract tourists and foreign investment and then they pull a stroke like this to curtail to the fanatics like a bunch of limp dicks. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot economically, surely they cant be so fucking dumb as to not realise the implications of their decision.
                              The biggest cost to such prohibition will probably be enforcement, you're tying up the courts, police and of course filling the prisons with criminals if you decide to criminalize the consumption of alcohol.

                              Comment


                              • Mind quite a few officials will make a small fortune on corruption by turning a blind eye to illegal stills for a slight donation.
                                As an add to that in Saudi it was 75 pounds sterling to smuggle one bottle of vodka, so some customs officials will be on a nicer earner

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