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Anti LGBT campaign in Indonesia.

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  • Isn't it kind of sd that the only choices left for this thread are: feeding a... creature that will eat anything and return it as a foul smelling substance, and just ging the thread to said creature to do with as he will?

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    • Happy, I can sense and understand your feeling of frustration here, but I don't think your comment is entirely fair. Every poster has a right (sorry, mods ... privilege) to express his or her opinions and perspective here, within the parameters of the "PG". I think Chin Wag has done this and hasn't crossed any line as far as the mods are concerned (apparently). Although many of those who have posted here may not agree with or accept that opinion or perspective in full or in part, that does not make it invalid or inappropriate in terms of its expression here. Chin can post as often as Chin wishes to in the thread.

      But I agree that at some point it seems pointless to continue the argument when it becomes repetitive and mostly about parsing semantics, while the position of each side is highly unlikely to be swayed or changed.

      I am interested in reading and trying to understand the perspectives of Indonesians who may want to post about the topic. Unfortunately, one of the previous posters who did so could not or would not stay away from expressing his views in the form of ad hominem attacks, insults, etc. I don't think Chin Wag has done the same, in fact I think for the most part CW has expressed his / her views politely even though the views themselves may seem "offensive" to some. But remember that the views expressed by many of us in support of protected rights for "LGBT" persons may be equally "offensive" to those with the same or similar perspective as CW.

      I personally do not believe or accept CW's assertion that "90% of Indonesian reject LGBT 'rights' because they follow their Christian or Muslim religion", in the sense that I do not think it is that simple or "black and white". I think there is probably a lot more "grey" than CW would care to recognize. I also don't think CW is correct in assuming that CW can confidently and accurately speak for and express the view of 90% of all Indonesian people about this. If CW wants to say that 90 (plus, I think) percent of Indonesians follow either Islam or Christianity, and the sacred texts followed by all of these indicate that same sex sexual behavior is sin, so the great majority of them believe that it is sin and are against it, I have no problem to accept that statement. But even if 90 % of people follow a religion which says that 'x' is sin and unacceptable, it does not mean that they all think and feel exactly the same way about it, and it is unlikely that they would, considering that all humans have been given the blessing of "aql", or reasoning, to think for themselves and to question what they are taught.

      But I do think that CW has a right to speak here. It would be good I think if more Indonesian posters would do so and perhaps give a more 'nuanced" picture of the spectrum of views (which is as close as I plan to come to using the word "rainbow"), which I think is somewhat broader than CW believes or asserts. In any case, I personally never intended to post so much in this thread as I have done, but life and threads (and you know what) happen, so ... (shrug)
      [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

      The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

      Comment


      • You are right, Mr. B, CW does have the right to post, and I am not sure that I would want to belong to a forum where he was sanctioned for giving the opinions that he has in the manner in which he has given them. Nonetheless, I have found his posts hard to follow... not necessarily hard to understand, but more along the lines of hard to believe. It is rare to encounter a person who on the one hand presents the world in terms of black and white, and on the other, tells you that you will understand when you have more experience of it. It defies reason. Claiming to be the voice of Indonesia, by virtue of being Indonesian, then telling another Indonesian poster, that you "don't read your ideas here, so I'm not sure if you do (understand the Indonesian viewpoint)", defies reason. Arguing a difference between "people of faith" and "people of religion", while ignoring the actual relevant parts of a post (done repeatedly, on other posts)... is an insult to reason.

        Also, posting in a "less than nuanced" way, then referencing that "less than nuanced" post for clarification of later "less than nuanced posts" leaves me feeling confused as to whether the poster: does not actually know what clarification is, does not understand that simply stating your opinion does not make that opinion clear/true/useful, or is simply enjoying being a pain in the... nether regions of all the readers.

        The feeling is that this poster just wants to grind us all down on the topic, so that he can leave his own anti LGBT opinion as the last, uninspiring viewpoint. And yes, I do find that opinion offensive, in that it is a personal, unreasonable, bit of bias being put forth as something other than what it is. Such an act is a disgrace to one's own intellect, and an insult to those one would hope to persuade by it. This is the sort of slop one would feed to pigs.

        If I am guilty of the same, you are free to call me on it.
        Last edited by Happyman; 25-03-16, 21:36.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Happyman View Post
          You are right, Mr. B, CW does have the right to post, and I am not sure that I would want to belong to a forum where he was sanctioned for giving the opinions that he has in the manner in which he has given them. Nonetheless, I have found his posts hard to follow... not necessarily hard to understand, but more along the lines of hard to believe. It is rare to encounter a person who on the one hand presents the world in terms of black and white, and on the other, tells you that you will understand when you have more experience of it. It defies reason. Claiming to be the voice of Indonesia, by virtue of being Indonesian, then telling another Indonesian poster, that you "don't read your ideas here, so I'm not sure if you do (understand the Indonesian viewpoint)", defies reason. Arguing a difference between "people of faith" and "people of religion", while ignoring the actual relevant parts of a post (done repeatedly, on other posts)... is an insult to reason.

          Also, posting in a "less than nuanced" way, then referencing that "less than nuanced" post for clarification of later "less than nuanced posts" leaves me feeling confused as to whether the poster: does not actually know what clarification is, does not understand that simply stating your opinion does not make that opinion clear/true/useful, or is simply enjoying being a pain in the... nether regions of all the readers.

          The feeling is that this poster just wants to grind us all down on the topic, so that he can leave his own anti LGBT opinion as the last, uninspiring viewpoint. And yes, I do find that opinion offensive, in that it is a personal, unreasonable, bit of bias being put forth as something other than what it is. Such an act is a disgrace to one's own intellect, and an insult to those one would hope to persuade by it. This is the sort of slop one would feed to pigs.

          If I am guilty of the same, you are free to call me on it.
          Whoaa there, big fella ... nobody is accusing you of being a "pig-slopper", certainly not me. You are free to call someone out on something if it sets off your personal "b/s detector", I'm not trying to say that you aren't (free to do so). Personally I thought your assessment was worded a bit more harshly than necessary, that's all.

          Knowing a bit of your personal history from your posts on this forum, it seems likely to me that as a former dedicated "bible-thumper", you were probably at least a bit intolerant towards some groups of people or categories of "sinners" (feel free to correct me if I am making an incorrect assumption), and I think now that you are "self-liberated" from religion (if that is an acceptable characterization or description for you), you tend to be a bit intolerant of ... well, "bible-thumpers". No?

          I kind of understand, too. I worked in telemarketing for a few years in my twenties, and in the years following I hung up on a-plenty of the same ... with ... no ... mercy ... what ... so ... ever.
          [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

          The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
            Whoaa there, big fella ... nobody is accusing you of being a "pig-slopper", certainly not me. You are free to call someone out on something if it sets off your personal "b/s detector", I'm not trying to say that you aren't (free to do so). Personally I thought your assessment was worded a bit more harshly than necessary, that's all.

            Knowing a bit of your personal history from your posts on this forum, it seems likely to me that as a former dedicated "bible-thumper", you were probably at least a bit intolerant towards some groups of people or categories of "sinners" (feel free to correct me if I am making an incorrect assumption), and I think now that you are "self-liberated" from religion (if that is an acceptable characterization or description for you), you tend to be a bit intolerant of ... well, "bible-thumpers". No?

            I kind of understand, too. I worked in telemarketing for a few years in my twenties, and in the years following I hung up on a-plenty of the same ... with ... no ... mercy ... what ... so ... ever.
            Well... you got me there. As intolerant as I was (and continue to be, on a few points), the intolerance of my own religious community towards "outsiders" was one of the things that led me to start to question that community. My own shameful actions as a member of that community, and the treatment I later received at the hands of that same community have instilled in me a very negative reaction to the "I don't like you, and my book says I don't have to... so you're lucky I'm just such a nice guy, else things might get ugly" attitude. Guess it's kinda easy for me to pretend I am taking the high road by only being intolerant towards the intolerant... honestly it is the best I can do. It is just hard to ignore this crap; people damaging the lives of others in real, demonstrable, ways... and having such a flimsy (to my eyes) set of excuses for doing it.

            Actually, here is a real flaw in my character; it is easier for me to tolerate the slight, common, sorts of intolerance and abuse we see in our daily lives than it is for me to tolerate someone trying to explain and justify those actions. I find it easier to swallow the concept that people are just acting on "instinct" (learned through their upbringing and activated through circumstance) when they behave abominably than to accept that they are truly lacking the mental facilities to see they are wrong (were they to try to assess their actions). I much prefer, "I don't give a shit if it's wrong or not, I don't like ****", to, "we are justified in our dislike of **** because of...", when the latter statement couldn't hold water in a flood.

            Since we seem to be spending a lot of time off topic, here is a link for a recent article in the Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/grace-...b_9540230.html
            Last edited by Happyman; 26-03-16, 22:22.

            Comment


            • Listen up, you pig sloppers! Just kidding, but I really got a kick out of that one, Mr. B

              Happy, I really relate to a lot of what you've said here. I left the Christian faith for many of the same reasons it sounds like you did, though it was at a young age and I had yet to fully develop into Bible thumper status. Also, I can relate to your "intolerance of intolerance," and I similarly have low patience for people who claim they can justify or intellectually argue their bigotry and fail to do so. Your initial statement was harshly worded, but it pretty much completely expressed my sentiments as well.

              Here's a video that left me with goosebumps because this minister is so dead on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYg4xLkRMio
              It's not in reference to the anti-LGBT movement here in Indonesia, but for those who don't know, there is something similar going on right now in the US with regard to public restroom access, and it's sparking much of the same irrational fear and hatred that we're seeing in Indonesia. "Do you see the irony here? We ignore those things that are considered archaic. However, something we don't understand we demonize and consider worthy of subjecting people to hate and discrimination."

              It really blows my mind when Indonesian people think that the US is "free" or safe for LGBT people and that they are universally accepted by the public. It's still quite the opposite in most of the US, even in those bigger cities that are more accepting (key word: more). In my city, Seattle, which we tend to think of as very LGBT-friendly, there has been a recurring trend in just the past couple years of people being attacked on the street because of their LGBT status.

              This is an ongoing fight for human rights, and no change has ever come without struggle or conflict between brave activists and the general public. "That might work in the US, but here in Indonesia, demanding rights will never work," you say? I'm sure it's much more comfortable for many people who are not affected by the current status quo if those people who ARE affected would just stay silent. By this logic, any discriminated group should just shut the **** up and take the (figurative and sometimes literal) beating. I find that viewpoint disgusting and shameful.
              Last edited by jason206; 28-03-16, 01:35.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jason206 View Post
                there is something similar going on right now in the US with regard to public restroom access, and it's sparking much of the same irrational fear and hatred that we're seeing in Indonesia. "Do you see the irony here? We ignore those things that are considered archaic. However, something we don't understand we demonize and consider worthy of subjecting people to hate and discrimination."

                It really blows my mind when Indonesian people think that the US is "free" or safe for LGBT people and that they are universally accepted by the public. It's still quite the opposite in most of the US, even in those bigger cities that are more accepting (key word: more). In my city, Seattle, which we tend to think of as very LGBT-friendly, there has been a recurring trend in just the past couple years of people being attacked on the street because of their LGBT status.

                This is an ongoing fight for human rights, and no change has ever come without struggle or conflict between brave activists and the general public. "That might work in the US, but here in Indonesia, demanding rights will never work," you say? I'm sure it's much more comfortable for many people who are not affected by the current status quo if those people who ARE affected would just stay silent. By this logic, any discriminated group should just shut the **** up and take the (figurative and sometimes literal) beating. I find that viewpoint disgusting and shameful.
                I'm all for transsexuals using the bathroom... of their actual, real, assigned sex. Opposition to their use of their desired restroom is, in my case, not based on anything irrational: I find transsexuals to be completely illogical in their pursuit of "changing" their sex. It is unethical to humor them; assisting them in transitioning to another sex is associated with increased mortality. There is much conjecture about how we can harmonize their identities with their bodies, but there's scant evidence that treatments actually work and a great deal of evidence coming forward that we are helping them kill themselves.

                What is irrational is suggesting that you can have a male with a vagina or a female with a penis (for the record, people who are intersex are a separate issue and have a chromosomal defect). This violates the most basic biological definitions of the sexes. Psychology should not be allowed to dominate the discussion on transsexuals, and I personally find it repugnant that those who are opposed to this illogical, groundless "transmania" are labeled as irrational or bigots. We have a binary set of sexes. XY can never become XX and vice versa.

                As to the status of gay rights in the United States, they have some of the protections they desire but not all. It's true that there's still some ground to cover, it's true that not everyone has come to accept at least that they deserve protections under the law for their minority status. Workplace discrimination can still exist, adoption rights aren't entirely met out. However, it is far and away better than anything in Indonesia. Americans, even if they are rabid in their contempt for homosexuality, sorely dislike censorship. They're willing to give a platform for homosexuals, they're willing to hear them out.

                I don't think the same is true in Indonesia, not at all, and I think there's slightly more fertile religious ground for acceptance in the United States than in Indonesia. In Christianity, you can at least say that Paul hated homosexuality, but Jesus might have (I disagree, see his stunning defense of halakha) had no opinion. Islam has no such gray area for homosexuality, Muslims would have to be convinced to set aside their religious sentiment in favor of secular defenses for the orientation. As Indonesia is not now nor has ever been a secular society, that should put to bed any hope that Indonesia will advance on this issue any time in the next 50 years.

                First things first: Indonesia must become a secular society before it can even begin to entertain the notion that homosexuality is a natural sexual orientation and that homosexuals deserve protections under the law.

                Comment


                • Disclaimer: I myself am a religious/spiritual person, but I like to challenge my thoughts and religion. I believe that in doing so it just strengthens my belief. As such my thoughts below are based on that. It's meant to be food for thought and encouraging open mindness and not an attempt to change anyone's belief or thoughts, simply to challenge them, likewise I welcome anyone that would like to challenge what I've raised below.

                  33 pages is a lot to read, so be skimmed thru it and these are my thoughts:

                  1. For those that believe that lgbt is "wrong" or against the desires of God and that changing sex and being gay is against nature, etc, etc, I have but one thing to say. According to whom is it against nature? I would say that it's awfully condescending to presume that, as that presumes having an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the world! It wasn't all too long ago that we firmly believed that the world was flat, or that the earth was the center of the universe and anyone who deemed otherwise was considered to be blasphemous or crazy.

                  To that same extent we cant possibly know the grand design for humanity or nature, only what we can perceive logical. As such based on that how can we assume that someone being born in the wrong body and wanting to correct it, not associating with ones percieved gender or desiring the same sex is wrong when we're barely scratching the surface of genetics and how our bodies function.

                  2. Religion says it's wrong! - while I don't mean to offend anyone, we must remember one important thing. The basis for these religions was formed centuries ago. I wonder if from that perspective of anyone has considered the following: a. The prophets and saints of the time wrote the scriptures to apply to the people of the time, and as such just as many learnable lessons are part of the religious text as just as many that aren't?

                  B. Certain ideas were implemented simply because humanity was not mature enough at the time to handle greater ideas

                  C. With the exception of the quoran, the bible & the subsequent books of Islam were NOT written by the prophets themselves, and over time how do we know how much of what's written hasn't been edited or based on conjecture? After all we how can we as humans even begin to understand gods plan for us and who or what he/she is, let alone commit it to paper. How do we know the scripts were not edited to suit the people of the time. A good example of this are the Dead Sea scrolls, additional books written by other followers of Jesus that directly conflict facts in the bible, but not recognized by the papacy.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jelpancho View Post

                    C. With the exception of the quoran, the bible & the subsequent books of Islam were NOT written by the prophets themselves,

                    and over time how do we know how much of what's written hasn't been edited or based on conjecture?

                    After all we how can we as humans even begin to understand gods plan for us and who or what he/she is, let alone commit it to paper.
                    Your post reveals a few common and fundamental misconceptions regarding Islam and the Holy Qur'an.

                    1) The Qur'an, according to the belief of more than one billion Muslims, the Prophet himself, and the Qur'an itself, was not "written by" Mohammed (wa alleyhi salaam). (He was illiterate.)

                    2) The Qur'an has not been altered or edited in any way since the "first edition" (there is only one "version", not two, several or many ... more properly put, there are no "versions" at all).

                    3) According to the Qur'an itself and the beliefs of the Muslims, we can understand who or what God is, and what the plan of God for people to follow is, from the Qur'an itself, which is the revealed word of Allah (subhana wa t'alla).
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chin Wag View Post
                      Indonesian perspective is based on their faith. Their faith is based on Al-Qur'an and Bible. Anyone who practices something against the faith, should watch his/her back. Want to prove the real perspective of Indonesian as I describe here? You can talk to the community of religious Indonesian in Mosque and church about something which is against their faith then see for yourself what happen next.


                      If the respect and courtesy that you meant here is in line with the faith based on Al-Qur'an and/or Bible, your wish come true. Otherwise, I prefer my faith to anything out of it.
                      Sorry I for being late to the party.

                      Wag, I would like to know what churches you might be referring to and where they are. The churches(about 10) that I have been to will say homosexuality is a sin, BUT to love them(ie treat them for what they are, human) and show compassion.

                      Am I going to agree with Mister Bule, you, or even fedbrown on everything? No

                      Can I treat ya'll with respect and like a human being? Yes.
                      Lucky 13

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ChrisTex View Post
                        Sorry I for being late to the party.

                        Wag, I would like to know what churches you might be referring to and where they are. The churches(about 10) that I have been to will say homosexuality is a sin, BUT to love them(ie treat them for what they are, human) and show compassion.

                        Am I going to agree with Mister Bule, you, or even fedbrown on everything? No

                        Can I treat ya'll with respect and like a human being? Yes.
                        Mmmmm.... y'all.... my southern sensibilities are tingling. I have yet to meet another person in Jakarta who uses this. I taught it to my students... ya know, because it's functional.

                        Totally off topic. As you were!

                        Comment


                        • I use it all the time and have gotten my wife to use aye for yes.
                          Lucky 13

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