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  • Anti LGBT campaign in Indonesia.

    I have been following the news about anti LGBT campaign in Indonesia. It's not surprising that many politicians and religious leaders (perhaps the majority of Indonesians) are against this practice. The debate is very interesting as it brings back the old theme: nurture vs nature. Just like any debate on LGBT in many countries, the opponent camp in Indonesia use religious teachings to dismiss any gay rights and call for rehabilitation of gay people Indonesia. But debate over gay rights in Indonesia is interesting as anecdotes and myths also inform the debate. During one seminar, the mayor of Tangerang claimed that the consumption of instant noodles will lead women to produce gay babies.

    Although historically, some ethnic groups in Indonesia do recognise alternative gender (Bugis society) and male bonding (Reog Ponorogo dance), modern Indonesia has moved towards a rigid boundary of gender and sexuality. This shift from tolerance to exclusivism is without any historical reason. The Chinese communities were banned from trade in rural areas during Sukarno era. Then the Suharto government made the repression even wider and harsher: excluding all Chinese Indonesian to participate in politics, killings and arresting all left-leaning activists, sending Islamic activists to jail, and setting up military operation in troubling regions of Aceh, Papua and Timor. Now LGBT communities will join the list of disempowered communities along with Shiite and Ahmaddiyyah groups. All of these discriminations are done as a means to define what is Indonesia for them: an intolerant nation.
    Last edited by ponyexpress; 28-02-16, 15:41.

  • #2
    On my recent travels around java I did note an increase in radicalism , which I did not see 7 years ago , the beauty of Indonesia for me was the softness of the majority religion and acceptance of other faiths and lifestyles , unfortunately the tolerance seems to be disappearing .

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
      I have been following the news about anti LGBT campaign in Indonesia. It's not surprising that many politicians and religious leaders (perhaps the majority of Indonesians) are against this practice. The debate is very interesting as it brings back the old theme: nurture vs nature. Just like any debate on LGBT in many countries, the opponent camp in Indonesia use religious teachings to dismiss any gay rights and call for rehabilitation of gay people Indonesia. But debate over gay rights in Indonesia is interesting as anecdotes and myths also inform the debate. During one seminar, the mayor of Tangerang claimed that the consumption of instant noodles will lead women to produce gay babies.

      Although historically, some ethnic groups in Indonesia do recognise alternative gender (Bugis society) and male bonding (Reog Ponorogo dance), modern Indonesia has moved towards a rigid boundary of gender and sexuality. This shift from tolerance to exclusivism is without any historical reason. The Chinese communities were banned from trade in rural areas during Sukarno era. Then the Suharto government made the repression even wider and harsher: excluding all Chinese Indonesian to participate in politics, killings and arresting all left-leaning activists, sending Islamic activists to jail, and setting up military operation in troubling regions of Aceh, Papua and Timor. Now LGBT communities will join the list of disempowered communities along with Shiite and Ahmaddiyyah groups. All of these discriminations are done as a means to define what is Indonesia for them: an intolerant nation.
      I am a Chinese Indonesian.

      While I believe that one sexual preference is a private matter, and none of my business, but I really prefer if the LGBT group stop their campaigning for acceptance. I mean it is no secret that Indonesian people practice don't ask don't tell approach when it comes to LGBT, so no need to disrupt the peace that will add nothing to the society at large.

      As for Soeharto era, to be fair, most of the problem during the new order as mentioned by the OP is not his fault:

      1. As a Indonesian Chinese who grew up during the last year of Soeharto's era in a family without any political connection or business connection to the power players during the era...I really don't feel any discrimination toward me, well save for that from the anak kampongs that gave me the moniker of "pendatang or cina." In fact at the time, I felt overwhelmed by the fact that as a Christian minority, there are so many churches to practice my faith at the time (now I am agnostic to no fault of the Soeharto).

      2. Yes, some Chinese were prohibited from engaging in any political activities, but those are Chinese with communist ties in the past. As for the rest of us, political live is pretty much open for business. Yorrys Raweyai of Golkar and Bob Hassan for example are Indonesian politician with Chinese descent.

      3. The communist casualities during the 1965's purges were 105.000 life. Granted still a big number but far below the farfetched 1,5million or 3million lives spread by foreigners like Joshua Oppenheim who seek limelight from the plight of Indonesian and far below the actual international communist victims that amounting to 300million.

      https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v14i2a02p.pdf

      http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Book.../dp/0674076087

      4. Moslem were victims of the traps set by Ali Moertopo, Benny Moerdani and the CSIS. The idea is that CSIS, as a CIA organization will infiltrated hard line Islamic group and will induce them to raise arms against Indonesian gov which will be crushed easily by the military apparatus.

      http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...a-ali-moertopo

      https://majalah.tempo.co/kanal/2014/...Laporan-Khusus

      5. Aceh, the fault lies to Soekarno. In the beginning, Soekarno promised the Acehnese that if they joined Indonesia, then the gov will allow them to govern themselves with Islamic law. After his position is secured, Soekarno rescinded his promise to Aceh to allow them wide autonomy.

      6. Timor, the problem will not exist if the portugese arrange for a proper transfer in power before they ran away from timor and Australia lust for oil reserves in the timor gap don't get the better of them. In the end, Indonesian have to clean the mess of the portugese and as a consession for the Australian, Indonesian gov agree to give Australia the oil reserves in timor gap.

      7. Papua issue is a provocation from carmel brickman aka carmel budiardjo, a british lady with strong ties to Indonesian Communist Party/PKI (she is a widow to a high rank PKI's official and the right hand woman of Njoto, the chief of propaganda and agitation of PKI) to disparage the good name of Indonesia. But this is a story for another day.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by fedbrown View Post
        I am a Chinese Indonesian.

        While I believe that one sexual preference is a private matter, and none of my business, but I really prefer if the LGBT group stop their campaigning for acceptance. I mean it is no secret that Indonesian people practice don't ask don't tell approach when it comes to LGBT, so no need to disrupt the peace that will add nothing to the society at large.

        As for Soeharto era, to be fair, most of the problem during the new order as mentioned by the OP is not his fault:

        1. As a Indonesian Chinese who grew up during the last year of Soeharto's era in a family without any political connection or business connection to the power players during the era...I really don't feel any discrimination toward me, well save for that from the anak kampongs that gave me the moniker of "pendatang or cina." In fact at the time, I felt overwhelmed by the fact that as a Christian minority, there are so many churches to practice my faith at the time (now I am agnostic to no fault of the Soeharto).

        2. Yes, some Chinese were prohibited from engaging in any political activities, but those are Chinese with communist ties in the past. As for the rest of us, political live is pretty much open for business. Yorrys Raweyai of Golkar and Bob Hassan for example are Indonesian politician with Chinese descent.

        3. The communist casualities during the 1965's purges were 105.000 life. Granted still a big number but far below the farfetched 1,5million or 3million lives spread by foreigners like Joshua Oppenheim who seek limelight from the plight of Indonesian and far below the actual international communist victims that amounting to 300million.

        https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v14i2a02p.pdf

        http://www.amazon.com/The-Black-Book.../dp/0674076087

        4. Moslem were victims of the traps set by Ali Moertopo, Benny Moerdani and the CSIS. The idea is that CSIS, as a CIA organization will infiltrated hard line Islamic group and will induce them to raise arms against Indonesian gov which will be crushed easily by the military apparatus.

        http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...a-ali-moertopo

        https://majalah.tempo.co/kanal/2014/...Laporan-Khusus

        5. Aceh, the fault lies to Soekarno. In the beginning, Soekarno promised the Acehnese that if they joined Indonesia, then the gov will allow them to govern themselves with Islamic law. After his position is secured, Soekarno rescinded his promise to Aceh to allow them wide autonomy.

        6. Timor, the problem will not exist if the portugese arrange for a proper transfer in power before they ran away from timor and Australia lust for oil reserves in the timor gap don't get the better of them. In the end, Indonesian have to clean the mess of the portugese and as a consession for the Australian, Indonesian gov agree to give Australia the oil reserves in timor gap.

        7. Papua issue is a provocation from carmel brickman aka carmel budiardjo, a british lady with strong ties to Indonesian Communist Party/PKI (she is a widow to a high rank PKI's official and the right hand woman of Njoto, the chief of propaganda and agitation of PKI) to disparage the good name of Indonesia. But this is a story for another day.
        As expected, one would respond to my thread with nationalist crap. Read again the presidential regulation no 10 1959 if you want to know more about the banning of foreign people to do business in rural areas. During Suharto era, the government required a letter of proof of Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia. Although this policy was aimed at people with foreing descent, in reality, it applied to Chinese Indonesians.

        What's wrong if LGBT communities are asking for acceptance?

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't know many people in the LGBT community except two people(with one now being straight. You would have to ask him his story). However one of the two people I know was the MC at my wedding in Solo and he was fairly open and it caught me off guard. It wasn't that he was gay that surprised me, but by a few things he said out in the open to a bunch of strangers (My wife handed him the boquet while she signed the civil gov't paperwork and said 'now I am a princess' was one of them and out of no where). Ended up seeing him again on New Years Eve and again he was very open. Now did he do it by getting up and shouting it? No, he made jokes about marriage and he was having a good time.

          I do agree that members of the LGBT community do need to be treated for what they are...PEOPLE. The only difference really is who they find attractive. If they are qualified to do a job, why shouldn't they get the position? Treat them like people, not go Westboro Baptist on them. In fact, don't tell them them about ramon noodles being the cause for gay babies. They might start a crusade on that and cause university students to starve.


          From what some friends of mine told me in Papua(at least Wamena), the military and police don't get along very well. In some cases it is an eye for an eye.
          Lucky 13

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
            As expected, one would respond to my thread with nationalist crap. Read again the presidential regulation no 10 1959 if you want to know more about the banning of foreign people to do business in rural areas. During Suharto era, the government required a letter of proof of Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia. Although this policy was aimed at people with foreing descent, in reality, it applied to Chinese Indonesians.

            What's wrong if LGBT communities are asking for acceptance?
            Where did you read in my post that i reject lgbt on national grounds?

            What's wrong if LGBT communities asking for acceptance? For me, it is exactly like christian forcing their views that jesus is god or moslem insisting mohammed is the last prophet or atheis mocking people who believe in god and liking it to believing russell's teapot or flying spaghetti monster.

            I like that moslem saying: to you your religion, to me my religion.

            To same principle applies, if you prefer same sex partner, fine good for you, but don't flaunt it publicly and forcing that view.

            And, the "benteng economic" of the soekarno has failed in it face value. In practice most of the pribumis who got concession will cooperate with the chinese or sell it altogether. It is exactly what happened to the malaysian new economic policy/nep. Because the policy was not efficient, so toward the end of soekarno's rule, he abolished the "benteng policy."

            As for soeharto and the letter to proof nationality. I could explain it to you, but please confirm whether it is appropriate to do so in lgbt's thread? Don't want to be off topic.

            Comment


            • #7
              [QUOTE=fedbrown;478644]Where did you read in my post that i reject lgbt on national grounds?

              What's wrong if LGBT communities asking for acceptance? For me, it is exactly like christian forcing their views that jesus is god or moslem insisting mohammed is the last prophet or atheis mocking people who believe in god and liking it to believing russell's teapot or flying spaghetti monster.

              I like that moslem saying: to you your religion, to me my religion.

              To same principle applies, if you prefer same sex partner, fine good for you, but don't flaunt it publicly and forcing that view.

              And, the "benteng economic" of the soekarno has failed in it face value. In practice most of the pribumis who got concession will cooperate with the chinese or sell it altogether. It is exactly what happened to the malaysian new economic policy/nep. Because the policy was not efficient, so toward the end of soekarno's rule, he abolished the "benteng policy."

              As for soeharto and the letter to proof nationality. I could explain it to you, but please confirm whether it is appropriate to do so in lgbt's thread? Don't want to be off topic.[/QU

              By nationalistic crap OP probably meant your topics about east Timor and Papua, widely discussed in prior threads, look for posts by Hombre De Maiz. 105000 communists killed but how about the non-communists getting killed under false pretenses.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by fedbrown View Post
                Where did you read in my post that i reject lgbt on national grounds?

                What's wrong if LGBT communities asking for acceptance? For me, it is exactly like christian forcing their views that jesus is god or moslem insisting mohammed is the last prophet or atheis mocking people who believe in god and liking it to believing russell's teapot or flying spaghetti monster.

                I like that moslem saying: to you your religion, to me my religion.

                To same principle applies, if you prefer same sex partner, fine good for you, but don't flaunt it publicly and forcing that view.

                And, the "benteng economic" of the soekarno has failed in it face value. In practice most of the pribumis who got concession will cooperate with the chinese or sell it altogether. It is exactly what happened to the malaysian new economic policy/nep. Because the policy was not efficient, so toward the end of soekarno's rule, he abolished the "benteng policy."

                As for soeharto and the letter to proof nationality. I could explain it to you, but please confirm whether it is appropriate to do so in lgbt's thread? Don't want to be off topic.
                I don't think the LGBT campaign for acceptance is similar to Christian or Islam adherents forcing their view on non Christian or Islam believer. The comparison is a bit stretch there. One is religion and the other one is sexual preference. Comparing both is like taking sexual preference to the same level as religion. They just want to ask not be discriminated.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fedbrown View Post
                  What's wrong if LGBT communities asking for acceptance? For me, it is exactly like christian forcing their views that jesus is god or moslem insisting mohammed is the last prophet or atheis mocking people who believe in god and liking it to believing russell's teapot or flying spaghetti monster.

                  I like that moslem saying: to you your religion, to me my religion.

                  To same principle applies, if you prefer same sex partner, fine good for you, but don't flaunt it publicly and forcing that view.
                  Here's the really, really big difference: homosexuality is a sexual orientation and, in part, an identity, not a religion. I chose to be a Muslim, I made a conscious effort to accept a religion. I did not make a conscious effort to be bisexual; as best as I can tell I've always found men and women attractive in near equal measure.

                  Place yourself in the shoes of a homosexual couple for a moment. When I walk around at the park with my wife and kids and we take family photos, people say "awww" and congratulate us on our kids. If a homosexual couple does the same thing, should they be confronted with "I think you should keep that to yourself?"

                  Should a gay co-worker not keep a picture of his spouse on his desk? Should a lesbian woman refrain from giving a warm hug? None of these things really reflect badly on the people, nor do they upset decorum. None of this has anything to do with you, frankly.

                  Can you definitively tell us how you're negatively impacted, in any way, by gay people displaying healthy relationships in a manner comparable to their heterosexual peers?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I disagree that there's a shift from tolerance to exclusion, beyond the brief, ethnic examples mentioned is there really evidence for widespread, well-worn acceptance of homosexuals? I get that there's limited acceptance of transsexuals, and I have spoken before on how that's not uncommon among Muslims. They can wrap their minds around a man becoming a woman, they can sometimes buy into pederasty, but they have a much, much more difficult time accepting relationships between same-sex peers.

                    If anything, this is a lateral move at worst.

                    Homosexuals make for an easy scapegoat because not only are they typically portrayed as unnatural, but are also used as an example of insidious "foreign influence." The belief in repressive countries the world over is that the locals don't actually have widespread homosexuality, that it was imported from the degenerate foreign cultures (that they can never seem to get enough of...) of the West. It's another iteration of "colonialism," you see.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      @bene,

                      If that is the case, then there is no nationalistic elements to my posts.

                      Firstly, timor, it is a matter of historical fact that initially indo gov don't care about east timor and have no ambition to add timor to indo's teritorry. But then portugese left the island without so much of properly arranging for transfer of power, resulting the east timorese start fighting among themselves, which start affecting indonesia as it neighbor.

                      On the other hand, america don't want another kuba near it allies (indonesia and australia) because fretilin are communist and start winning. Since australia don't want to clean up the mess of the portugese, that leaving indonesia as the only regional power to intervene in east timor. The intervention of indonesia works for australia because they correctly assumed that negotiating with indonesia on timor gap will be better than if they have to deal with an independent timor government.

                      2. Papua, as a matter of international law, the new indonesian government will inherit all teritory from it former colonialist, in this matter dutch, which includes west papua. So indonesian claims toward papua is strong.

                      And it is also a matter of historical facts that carmel budiardjo (nee brickman) is the widow of suswondo budiardjo, a high rank pki's member. Prior to the abortive coup, carmel worked for soebandrio, the head of inteligence during soekarno's era with closed ties to PKI. Beside that, carmel was the confidant of Njoto who work tirelessly to create propaganda for indonesian gov during the war with dutch for papua.

                      After pki's coup, naturally carmel was detained by new order gov for a couple of years. The she was deported back to england and establish tapol uk as her propaganda machine to disparage and destroying the good name of indonesia as well as inciting hate among groups in indonesia. Papua and east timor were her favorite topic.

                      After she succeeded in toppling soeharto's regime, instead of ceasing her hate crime against indonesia, carmel budiardjo stay with hatred to indonesia. For example, she funded joshua oppenheim to produce anti indonesia movies called the act of killing and the look of silence.

                      3. Non commie killed is called collateral damage, and it is common in a war. And made no mistake, in 1965, indonesian are at war with the communist. The number already including commie and non commie alike.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                        I don't think the LGBT campaign for acceptance is similar to Christian or Islam adherents forcing their view on non Christian or Islam believer. The comparison is a bit stretch there. One is religion and the other one is sexual preference. Comparing both is like taking sexual preference to the same level as religion. They just want to ask not be discriminated.
                        Let agree to disagree then.

                        For me, your religions, your sexual preference, etc are a matter of choice and should stay private.

                        If lgbt tried to bring their private life publicly then they will heading for collision course with other group who don't shares the lgbt preference to same sex partner and it will tear down the fabric of indonesian society.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fedbrown View Post
                          Let agree to disagree then.

                          For me, your religions, your sexual preference, etc are a matter of choice and should stay private.

                          If lgbt tried to bring their private life publicly then they will heading for collision course with other group who don't shares the lgbt preference to same sex partner and it will tear down the fabric of indonesian society.
                          Not that long ago, the moral titans of the West told us that our respective societies would tumble if we allowed any manner of gay rights, and some of them even remarked that natural disasters were expressions of God's displeasure with us for having veered from his divine order...

                          And we're still here.

                          Your sexual orientation is, by its nature, not a wholly private matter. Beyond the whole matter of decorum, beyond the whole matter of your private life, there's one burning question I have for you: how does it harm you? Seriously, if I kiss another man how have I wronged you? How have I challenged or changed or ruined your life? What sort of scars or baggage will you carry with you?

                          The truth of the matter is that not a damn thing changed if I did or didn't kiss another man. You have your hangups about gay people, fine, but you can't predicate a country's policies based on your neuroses. Denying homosexuals equal rights and equal tolerance in the public sphere is dangerous. It has a body count, it has real victims. It's not something that we can sweep under the rug and say "they should have kept it to themselves."

                          I'm not actually asking you to accept homosexuality. I don't accept Christianity; I am not a Christian. I am not being asked to accept their faith or their version of events, I merely tolerate their existence and as part of a social contract expect they'll do the same for me.

                          You can tolerate homosexuality, it's very easy, non-invasive and won't cost you a damn thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                            Here's the really, really big difference: homosexuality is a sexual orientation and, in part, an identity, not a religion. I chose to be a Muslim, I made a conscious effort to accept a religion. I did not make a conscious effort to be bisexual; as best as I can tell I've always found men and women attractive in near equal measure.

                            Place yourself in the shoes of a homosexual couple for a moment. When I walk around at the park with my wife and kids and we take family photos, people say "awww" and congratulate us on our kids. If a homosexual couple does the same thing, should they be confronted with "I think you should keep that to yourself?"

                            Should a gay co-worker not keep a picture of his spouse on his desk? Should a lesbian woman refrain from giving a warm hug? None of these things really reflect badly on the people, nor do they upset decorum. None of this has anything to do with you, frankly.

                            Can you definitively tell us how you're negatively impacted, in any way, by gay people displaying healthy relationships in a manner comparable to their heterosexual peers?
                            I understand where you came from.

                            For me, sexual orientation as religio is a choice. And as a human being, we are not define by our sexual preference or religion. Therefore I'm baffled by some lgbt community who commenting on the plight of alan turing and saying to the effect that: "look the gay alan turing is the father of personal computer and he single handely won world war 2 for the allies so gay must be good."

                            Err, i sincerely believe that alan turing is brilliant and his efforst greatly help the defeat of the nazi but that had nothing to do with him being gay.

                            And i thing you misunderstanding what i am trying to say.

                            Gay couple want to publicly show affection? Good for them, and most of the time indonesian would not care less (unless you are in a rural area which applying a strong sharia law). But, if the lgbt then begins to loudly and ever so proudly seek to enforce their "orientation," now, the indonesian will have a problem.

                            If you remember, before the kpi forbide any banci show that due the lgbt start voicing their sexual orientation, we don't mind with the lgbt became public figure and flaunting their (for a lack of proper word) gayness in national tv. We even allowed gay bar and "girls' night" in some cafe or bar. So, what discrimination?

                            Yes, we don't allow same sex marriage, but any gay couple could have their wedding in america then move back to indonesia as a married couple. Easy peasy right?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                              Not that long ago, the moral titans of the West told us that our respective societies would tumble if we allowed any manner of gay rights, and some of them even remarked that natural disasters were expressions of God's displeasure with us for having veered from his divine order...

                              And we're still here.

                              Your sexual orientation is, by its nature, not a wholly private matter. Beyond the whole matter of decorum, beyond the whole matter of your private life, there's one burning question I have for you: how does it harm you? Seriously, if I kiss another man how have I wronged you? How have I challenged or changed or ruined your life? What sort of scars or baggage will you carry with you?

                              The truth of the matter is that not a damn thing changed if I did or didn't kiss another man. You have your hangups about gay people, fine, but you can't predicate a country's policies based on your neuroses. Denying homosexuals equal rights and equal tolerance in the public sphere is dangerous. It has a body count, it has real victims. It's not something that we can sweep under the rug and say "they should have kept it to themselves."

                              I'm not actually asking you to accept homosexuality. I don't accept Christianity; I am not a Christian. I am not being asked to accept their faith or their version of events, I merely tolerate their existence and as part of a social contract expect they'll do the same for me.

                              You can tolerate homosexuality, it's very easy, non-invasive and won't cost you a damn thing.
                              If you want to kiss a man, be my guess.

                              Though i must say, unless gay or lesbi could produce children of their own, don't tell me that being lgbt is natural and love is love could conquer all.

                              When you start your arguments with love is love then all hell break loose since people with reply by saying that, well if love is love, then what about beastiality, incest, toonophile, pedophilia and other psychopatic sexual orientation etc, are all of them came naturally to human?

                              My point is, biologically wise, lgbt is not natural for human. Because to prevent our extinction as a species, human being have to breed and it could only happen in an intercourse between male and female. But if a male want to bond with male or female with female, then go ahead and have fun. Just keep it to yourself and don't forcing the view that gay is good or gay is the nature of being human.

                              Comment

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