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  • Don't get me wrong El_G, I'm not again accepting refugee.

    The amount is huge in a too much short time without ANYTHING prepare for their integration.
    Without a proper integration, we will end up with a huge bunch of people with low work qualification.
    It's very likeable they will end up in a enclave, in a situation similar than in France.

    Now that you bring the matter of fee. The cost is not just to pay them a plane ticket, we will need to supply a roof, food, school and all other freebee you can get in Canada like free medical.
    And this for how many year? For how many generation of them?
    This will be a huge social cost.

    And how much this solve to the problem?
    And why stop at 25000? Why not 100 000? 1 000 000?
    25 000 person is nothing compare to what is need to be saved. And we still need to go there fight for them.

    To this are added the problem of security. We already have problem with our own crack pot who want join ISIS and do "terrorist" act in our country.
    How can we believe it won't have any ISIS supporter inside this mass.

    And this is why I would prefer we secure an area THERE than bringing them in Canada.
    La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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    • Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
      Don't get me wrong El_G, I'm not again accepting refugee.

      The amount is huge in a too much short time without ANYTHING prepare for their integration.
      Without a proper integration, we will end up with a huge bunch of people with low work qualification.
      It's very likeable they will end up in a enclave, in a situation similar than in France.

      Now that you bring the matter of fee. The cost is not just to pay them a plane ticket, we will need to supply a roof, food, school and all other freebee you can get in Canada like free medical.
      And this for how many year? For how many generation of them?
      This will be a huge social cost.

      And how much this solve to the problem?
      And why stop at 25000? Why not 100 000? 1 000 000?
      25 000 person is nothing compare to what is need to be saved. And we still need to go there fight for them.

      To this are added the problem of security. We already have problem with our own crack pot who want join ISIS and do "terrorist" act in our country.
      How can we believe it won't have any ISIS supporter inside this mass.

      And this is why I would prefer we secure an area THERE than bringing them in Canada.
      All the problems you mention about cost (roof over their heads, education, Healthcare, etc) won't magically disappear if you make a refugee camp in Syria. The difference is that on top of this cost, you need to secure the place which is by far more expensive.

      Once again, there is no easy solution. I think this is also an indirect weapon of ISIS, another way to strike the West by burdening them with this huge humanitarian problem.

      The easy short term solution is for the West to close their eyes and borders to the refugees. Sure, that will work, no need to deal with an extra 25k people, no need to worry about Healthcare and integration and so on. But in the short term only. In the long term, it's gonna hurt much much more.

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      • I was thinking bringing 25 000 refugee was the way to close the eyes on the problem and politically wash hand by telling "us we have done something".

        Seriously, told me in which way this will solve in any way the ISIS problem.
        At best it will spread it more.
        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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        • Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
          I was thinking bringing 25 000 refugee was the way to close the eyes on the problem and politically wash hand by telling "us we have done something".

          Seriously, told me in which way this will solve in any way the ISIS problem.
          At best it will spread it more.
          1. 25k refugees is not much. Many countries taking in 25k refugees each on the other hand...

          2. Refugees =/= ISIS. Nobody said that taking in refugees would solve the ISIS problem. Refugees are a consequence of the actions of ISIS. Simultaneously from dealing with the refugee crisis, ISIS must be dealt with so that the source of refugees stops.

          3. Illegal immigration didn't start with the refugees fleeing ISIS. With or without these refugees, terrorists would have been able to pose as illegal immigrants. Other than that, extremist ideology only needs the internet to spread nowadays. Maybe we should stop the internet too. Problem solved!

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          • If there is one thing I am proud and thanksfull is, I was born and grown up in a country, in a continent, Spain and Europe, where there was freedom.

            Even been a catholic country, we had and have freedom to choose if we want to go to the church or not, if we want to pray or not, if we want to have religion class or ethic class in our schools for us or for our children, we could choose to eat or not eat meat on Fridays, we have the choice to choose whatever we want to do and how much we wanted to follow catholic religion.

            We growned up in that direction at least for the last 40 years, on a direction where religion was and it is not that important or didn't dictated our lives, for me that was good and I feel extremely lucky for that.
            Overcoming poverty is no a gesture of charity is an act of justice the protection of a fundamental human right to dignity..

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            • I think the real concern is the refugees are mostly Muslims. If Christians can be converted to Islam and become radicalized, how much easier would it be to radicalize a moderate Muslim? Radicalization is the biggest threat, even Canada has a support group http://hayatcanada.webs.com/ for families with relatives involved in radical Islamic groups. So you can imagine other countries with larger Muslim populations, their problem is magnified. Taking the refugees mean adding Muslims to their population, thus increasing the potential for future problems. There are radicals in every religion, but Islamic radicals are the only ones declaring war on all other religions (including Shiite Islam). I think one of the solutions is to help Assad, destroy ISIS, divide Syria into Sunni & Shiite areas, rebuilt the country, and bring home the refugees (who are free to choose Sunni or Shiite area). In the meantime, let them stay temporarily in Europe on humanitarian grounds.

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              • Just came back from Brussels and it is hell there. Just what IS wanted.

                They can't loose either way; or the EU will close their borders completely so IS can 'prove' the west is not willing to help and is bigoted, or they get millions (not thousands) of refugees in which completely destabilizes the economic and cultural structure.
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                • i think single males under retirement age (60-65 is?) who come alone should not be admitted.

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                  • Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
                    A bit from elgoretto:

                    -Have access to a durable solution

                    And dan mentionning how much "well" integrated are the arab in France.

                    Explain in part why I'm against of the migration of 25 000 refugee into Canada - expected to be bring before the end of the year.

                    The time it too short, the gov don't have have clear plan of what to do with those people, how integrate them, where they will live, where and how those kid will go to school.

                    And - don't even talk about pasing from the desert to the Canadian winter.

                    Now, Does moving 25 000 refugee from a refugee camp in the desert to a refugee camp in the winter is giving them a durable solution?
                    Do they will have a chance to integrate?

                    If they are cast aside, as it is very previsible, how much are the chance they could be recruited by ISIS?

                    Their is also all the matter of the huge amount in so short time, how are the chance isis memeber will hide inside the mass.
                    How could we control this?

                    I would be more favorable to more slow pace with a better planification of their integration.

                    I would be even more favorable to participating to the creation of a secure refugee camp THERE.
                    Is it true that those 25,000 refugees are moving to Quebec so they can increase the vote at the next round when the Quebecois Party might seperate Canada into two distinct countries. That would make sense of the planification.

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                    • Separatist is dead in Qc, there is still a party with his supporter, but that would not happen soon.

                      I didn't think about this, but definitely it would reduce even more the chance it ever happen as it is know (statistic) immigrant are always highly pro-federal.

                      In the previous federal election the party quebecois was totaly wash out, nobody vote for them at all. I didn't look how it was for the last (very recent) election.

                      I din't even know they were ALL coming in QC... Now I'm even less again it . At least if they were spread around Canada. More they will be concentrate in one place, less it will have chance for they integrate and more it have chance they become a problem.
                      La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
                        Separatist is dead in Qc, there is still a party with his supporter, but that would not happen soon.

                        I didn't think about this, but definitely it would reduce even more the chance it ever happen as it is know (statistic) immigrant are always highly pro-federal.
                        If France really cracks down, and some French Muslims feel disenfranchised, they might apply for Landed-Immigrant status to live in the French-speaking area of Quebec. Then, after 4 years, apply for citizenship.
                        The Parti Quebecois might be more supported then....and parts of Quebec might be the new Caliphate...
                        Last edited by Davita; 23-11-15, 08:55.

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                        • The Front National, the party of the french extreme right wing, has gathered 29,71% of vote for the first round of the election which was held this past week end. They are now the first political party in France, in front of all other parties of the right or left wing.

                          In March they already managed to gather about 25% of the votes which was already their all time best score.

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                          • Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                            The Front National, the party of the french extreme right wing, has gathered 29,71% of vote for the first round of the election which was held this past week end. They are now the first political party in France, in front of all other parties of the right or left wing.

                            In March they already managed to gather about 25% of the votes which was already their all time best score.
                            Oh dear! My forecast of more French immigrating to Quebec might become a reality.
                            I imagine the French National Front and the UK Nationalist Party leaving the EU...join forces and invade Guernsey....

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                            • Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                              The Front National, the party of the french extreme right wing, has gathered 29,71% of vote for the first round of the election which was held this past week end. They are now the first political party in France, in front of all other parties of the right or left wing.

                              In March they already managed to gather about 25% of the votes which was already their all time best score.
                              Demography is destiny; the French people have realized this and I suspect support for the party will continue to grow. This is excellent news for Calais, but perhaps challenging news for French national expats and their families if in a cross-cultural marriage. National Front's message on immigration has calmed (surprisingly) in recent years, but I suspect that they'll push for mass deportations of illegal immigrants and unemployed immigrants at the very least, a moratorium on immigration at worst.

                              This article, from a few years back, is fascinating and really helps to chart Marine Le Pen's popularity and growth. She's deviated from her father in key ways; I think she speaks perhaps for a majority of the French people because she's nowhere near as (publicly) nutty.

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/ma...anted=all&_r=0

                              I'm intrigued to see what happens if she finally manages to seize the presidency.

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                              • I am sure she and President Trump will get along famously.

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