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  • #91
    Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
    What "actually happened" is something different than depicted in your reposted Youtube video with a hand-wringing, them-versus-us, incomplete narrative produced by those with a political agenda. The vilification of refugees fleeing war and an oppressive dark-ages regime, is itself a dark-ages response. The problems this crisis present to the world are legion. Our response in the face of fear, hopelessness, bigotry, frustration and desperation is a measure of our humanity, collectively and individually.
    Great so does that mean you're ok if they can come and live round your way then ??

    Comment


    • #92
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
        Great so does that mean you're ok if they can come and live round your way then ??
        Yes, I am OK with "them" living around my way.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
          For such a "we" sentiment it sure as hell sounds like it's only white people who are expected to demonstrate this wholesome, humanist approach. It's very comfortable to assume the moral high ground, to state that you're standing up for humanity in the face of xenophobia. It's also totally divorced from reality.
          The reality is, we humans are all the same - one big race. Some of us have different skin colours, due to the area we were born in and the amount of sunlight there affecting the way which our skin evolved to cope with the environment around us.

          The more advanced of the human race realise we are all one race, regardless of religion or colour of skin etc and that it is completely by chance the area that our parents got together and created us and completely by chance the nationality we happen to have.

          The less advanced like to seek out differences, and think they are better/superior/morally right to other people, they are living with their heads in the sand, and can not comprehend the fact that all of us humans living on the planet are all connected - they cannot understand that each of us is as important as anyone else, and have hate towards other humans, when they in fact are like their brother or sister. Eventually, one day, their brains will evolve enough to wake up and see we are all the same.

          We all have a responsibility to help eachother, and live together on this planet. If some of us are struggling due to the unevolved and barbaric/medieval style thinking of some humans with less advanced brains (think ISIL or the far right hate groups that are in various countries around the planet) then I believe it is firmly our duty to help them.
          I have noticed you like to use "we" a lot in your comments on this thread. Who do you mean by "we"? When I think of "we" I think of the whole human race, I see through all borders.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
            Multiculturalism isn't the issue I agree with previous comments about the richness that immigrants to the UK have brought with them from the very first time of the Wind Rush (the first ship to land in the UK loaded up with west Indian Immigrants). They have enriched our societies by INTERGRATING with the indigenous population. How well equipped do you think the present wave of refugees are to cope with INTERGRATION into English, French, German etc. society ?? Simple answer is they are not, they will form their own sub class of ghettos and live off the dole to the resentment of the British population (who didn't want them in the first place)

            Multiculturalism works. I am testimony to that, but only when people are prepared to INTERGRATE. A lot of the present social problems in the UK are caused by later arriving refugees from Islamic countries (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia, Middle east, West Africa) to the UK who REFUSE TO INTERGRATE and strive for the implementation of sharia law, Islamic schools, halal food etc. Its these type of Immigrants and refugees that all seem to be fleeing a "war" or "persecution" of one type or another that have fucked multiculturalism by adopting an "us and them" mentality in the UK by refusing point blank to INTERGRATE into society.

            Before anyone wants to shoot me down as islamaphobic, or racist please note I grew up in the 70s and 80s with Indian, Pakistani, Moroccan and Algerian kids. we all went to the same school, and eat the same school dinners. We all attended assembly time and sung hymns together and they were all proud to be in a country like England. We would play round each others houses (my very first exposure to Islam) and their parents were all friendly hard working good Muslim people trying to make a better life than the one they had left behind. The present air of Islamic militancy just didn't exist. They were immigrants, they were Muslims just happy to be in the UK, and we were happy to have them as friends and neighbours, and they were happy to be that to us They didn't go on marches round the capital with their faces covered up waving placards threatening death to non Muslims, or burning poppies at the cenotaph on remembrance day. They didn't openly despise the indigenous population, our culture, England and the principles that it was founded on. This is problem brought about by the recent wave of refuges and their REFUSAL TO INTERGRATE.
            I do agree that there should be integration, but I feel that is a responsibility to be shared by both the new people and the existing people in an area. I think one of the problems for all of us on the planet is, we are not sure who is good and who is bad, so we put up a "shield" around us. In the same way that some people don't want refugees in their area - because they are not sure if one of them is a terrorist, some refugees might feel uncomfortable with the locals around them, because there might be a racist/hateful individual who doesn't like "foreigners". It does not help with all the far right hate groups active both on the streets and on social media.

            When we first move to a new areas, it can be hard to speak to people, particularly if there are racist individuals, and you are not sure if someone wants to harm you, and it can be hard to fit in. I think we should welcome the new people, no matter where they are from - just say hello, maybe invite them around for a meal or for a drink to the pub.

            Some of us may be a little different, no problem, we will all find something in common. Tolerance is key

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
              The reality is, we humans are all the same - one big race. Some of us have different skin colours, due to the area we were born in and the amount of sunlight there affecting the way which our skin evolved to cope with the environment around us.

              The more advanced of the human race realise we are all one race, regardless of religion or colour of skin etc and that it is completely by chance the area that our parents got together and created us and completely by chance the nationality we happen to have.

              The less advanced like to seek out differences, and think they are better/superior/morally right to other people, they are living with their heads in the sand, and can not comprehend the fact that all of us humans living on the planet are all connected - they cannot understand that each of us is as important as anyone else, and have hate towards other humans, when they in fact are like their brother or sister. Eventually, one day, their brains will evolve enough to wake up and see we are all the same.
              Observe the hypocrisy; those who do not drink the Kool-Aid of diversity are "less advanced" yet have a superiority complex. The truth is that YOU have a superiority complex versus those of us who are question the "we are the world" narrative you're trying to sell us here.

              I like to call this sort of belief the "Starfleet" or "Gene Roddenberry" view of the world. This sort of cheery belief suggests that not only are we all one species, something nobody here denied, but have a united, collective purpose for the betterment of all mankind. The reality of course is that we have set up borders and nation states and have identities that override this "humans as a hive mind" belief smugly held by a few naive idealists.

              The privileges and problems we incur as a result of our birth is an intractable problem. It's true, people from Syria had no choice being born there. And so too are people largely born into their station the world over. Yet they do have a choice to be Arab in identity, a choice to be Muslim, to be Alawite and so on. It's a story as old as the hills, one that isn't going to change with your hopeful well wishing. It's a problem, one that isn't resolved by importing all of them and allowing them to maintain these alien, and often troublesome, identities.

              They aren't going to drop their identities coming to Europe, why should Europeans lose their identities to accommodate their wishes?

              Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
              We all have a responsibility to help eachother, and live together on this planet. If some of us are struggling due to the unevolved and barbaric/medieval style thinking of some humans with less advanced brains (think ISIL or the far right hate groups that are in various countries around the planet) then I believe it is firmly our duty to help them.
              I have noticed you like to use "we" a lot in your comments on this thread. Who do you mean by "we"? When I think of "we" I think of the whole human race, I see through all borders.
              Great, see through all of the borders you want to, a nation state claims you and you're NOT a "citizen of the world." We are not "Earthicans," to use a term from Futurama. We have borders, and whether or not you view them as artificial or view yourself as a transcendent human, those borders serve to divide the human species along race, ethnicity, nationality and phenotype. I am a white person, a Westerner whose ancestors developed institutions vital to a modern, functional society. It's why our civilization catapulted beyond Islamic civilization.

              Is it possible for Muslims to adopt these institutions? You betcha. Is it going to happen in the next century? Not on your life.

              Kemal Ataturk managed to do so, but consider his reforms and the country he revolutionized compared with every other Muslim-majority polity on this planet. Europeans took centuries to make these changes, and they can do so with small numbers of immigrants. Massive waves of immigrants from failed states, carrying with them their failed ways, is a non-starter. We can only assimilate so many at a time, and the present mantra isn't to assimilate at all, but to call for diversity.

              Screw diversity, change your nationality and identify as that nationality or go home.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                Yes, I am OK with "them" living around my way.
                Really? I used to be more of an idealist. There was a time when I approved of Section 8 (U.S. government subsidized) housing, after all, concentrated poverty is bad, right? That was until I had to live next to Section 8 neighbors for a time. The sleepless nights from wild parties, guests coming over at all hours of the night, unkempt lawns (despite not having jobs and all the time in the world to attend to a lawn), police intervention, domestic violence etc... it all drove me in another direction. I began to realize that despite my best intentions, despite my desire to see this program as a necessary public good, *I* didn't want them to be *my* neighbors. And I also realized this would have been the result no matter who I got as neighbors.

                Syrian refugees are in the same boat. Yep, it's a sad story, somebody really aught to save those people. Do I want to them to live next to me? Nah, not really. How then can I expect anyone else to?

                I strongly suspect that your saintly patience would be tested. I strongly suspect that despite your desire to do good, the reality of living next to people from a failed state would slowly sink in. It's easy to say what we should do, it's another matter entirely to actually live with the consequences of millions of Arabs suddenly landing in Europe.

                Comment


                • #98
                  And besides, it's helpful to look at how well the Muslims already in Europe have integrated. That's just it... they totally haven't. The fact that multiple attackers were second generation "Europeans" should tell you all exactly how this is going down.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    A bit from elgoretto:

                    -Have access to a durable solution

                    And dan mentionning how much "well" integrated are the arab in France.

                    Explain in part why I'm against of the migration of 25 000 refugee into Canada - expected to be bring before the end of the year.

                    The time it too short, the gov don't have have clear plan of what to do with those people, how integrate them, where they will live, where and how those kid will go to school.

                    And - don't even talk about pasing from the desert to the Canadian winter.

                    Now, Does moving 25 000 refugee from a refugee camp in the desert to a refugee camp in the winter is giving them a durable solution?
                    Do they will have a chance to integrate?

                    If they are cast aside, as it is very previsible, how much are the chance they could be recruited by ISIS?

                    Their is also all the matter of the huge amount in so short time, how are the chance isis memeber will hide inside the mass.
                    How could we control this?

                    I would be more favorable to more slow pace with a better planification of their integration.

                    I would be even more favorable to participating to the creation of a secure refugee camp THERE.
                    La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                    Comment


                    • [SIZE=2]Here's an article on the history of suicide bombing for anyone that has the time

                      The author makes the point that suicide bombers are just another weapons system and that the type and organization of today's attacks began with the Japanese Kamikazes.

                      "[/SIZE][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][SIZE=2]To succeed, campaigns of suicide bombing need three factors: willing individuals, organizations to train and use them, and a society willing to accept such acts in the name of a greater good"

                      But the author concludes[/SIZE]
                      [/SIZE]
                      [SIZE=3]"[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][SIZE=3][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia]Accordingly, after more than a decade of suicide missions the elusive goal of suicide bombing’s most enthusiastic users—restoration of Islamic governance in the form of a new Caliphate unifying the world’s Muslims—is no closer.Instead of marking progress toward the goal, the hundreds of attacks the movement has mustered have tended to serve shorter-term goals such as publicizing the movement, giving it a claim for defending the Islamic community, and gaining recruits. This emphasis on short-term rather than long-term goals has cut the jihadis off from nearly all sources of social support.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      [/SIZE][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3]The jihadis, therefore, have only two of the three mutually reinforcing relationships necessary to make suicide bombing work both tactically and politically. They have the leadership and radical ideology necessary for suicide bombing but are only weakly connected to their communities, limiting their political impact. Jihadi over-use of suicide bombing has thus become an incomplete form of attack, more like sequential mass suicide than the use of self-sacrifice for an achievable political goal" [/SIZE]
                      http://origins.osu.edu/article/human...mbing/page/0/1[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                      George Bernard Shaw

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
                        A bit from elgoretto:

                        -Have access to a durable solution

                        And dan mentionning how much "well" integrated are the arab in France.

                        Explain in part why I'm against of the migration of 25 000 refugee into Canada - expected to be bring before the end of the year.

                        The time it too short, the gov don't have have clear plan of what to do with those people, how integrate them, where they will live, where and how those kid will go to school.

                        And - don't even talk about pasing from the desert to the Canadian winter.

                        Now, Does moving 25 000 refugee from a refugee camp in the desert to a refugee camp in the winter is giving them a durable solution?
                        Do they will have a chance to integrate?
                        Canada, as one of the leading Western countries, is better equipped than most to find a durable solution. Well equipped not only economically but socially and politically as well. Better than Turkey (I bring up this country because it's been used as an example).

                        If they are cast aside, as it is very previsible, how much are the chance they could be recruited by ISIS?
                        Isn't ISIS what they are fleeing from?

                        Don't you think that pushing migrants away is actually increasing the chances for ISIS to recruit some of them? Making the West look bad is a boon for all these extremists. It's playing their hand.

                        Their is also all the matter of the huge amount in so short time, how are the chance isis memeber will hide inside the mass.
                        How could we control this?
                        This is one of the most difficult problems to which there doesn't seem to be an immediate solution.

                        I would be more favorable to more slow pace with a better planification of their integration.
                        Sure, that would be ideal. In the mean time, these people are dying.

                        I would be even more favorable to participating to the creation of a secure refugee camp THERE.
                        And then what? Can you imagine how much more difficult and costly it would be just to make such an area secure in a war zone? And how could that be a durable solution? The country is in shambles. And that's only the practical aspect of it. What about politically? Wanna face Assad and by extension, Russia?

                        And if you think it's easy for terrorists to hide among refugees, can you imagine how easy it would be for them to blow themselves up in these camps? Hitting both the refugees and whatever peace keeping force managing the whole thing.




                        Of course, it would be nice if all countries would chip in and take some refugees. Spread the burden across the world. But it ain't gonna happen. Since when have we been able to get the whole world to work towards a unifying goal?

                        The reality is that there is a crisis and only some countries are stepping up. It's not fair but it's like that.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
                          The most frightening thing is this is actually happening -

                          Being European this video is sooooooooooooooo scary!

                          Are not wars suppose to make for fighting? what about the people who still on the country? the poor, the weak, the elderly people, the children, the woman, the people with disabilities, the sick people, the people in hospitals, the pregnant woman, the people who can not run away........................

                          Globaly talking I think people from muslim countries should be living on muslim countries.
                          Last edited by Shinta; 20-11-15, 06:44.
                          Overcoming poverty is no a gesture of charity is an act of justice the protection of a fundamental human right to dignity..

                          Comment


                          • Enough already with this stupid video. I'm gonna let you in on a secret: it's bullshit. Here's a short debunking.

                            The author of this video is simply a fear mongerer who carefully edited this video to show ONLY clips of refugees painting them in a negative light AS WELL as completely UNRELATED clips of violence from other groups (ironically some of this violence even aimed at migrant workers).

                            It's incredibly easy to make anyone or any group look bad by only selecting certain footage.

                            Just don't believe everything you read on Facebook.

                            And Muslims should live in Muslim countries? How about Spanish people should just live in Spain then?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                              For such a "we" sentiment it sure as hell sounds like it's only white people who are expected to demonstrate this wholesome, humanist approach. It's very comfortable to assume the moral high ground, to state that you're standing up for humanity in the face of xenophobia. It's also totally divorced from reality.
                              The truth is we make our own reality.

                              Comment


                              • Let's make one better than yours, Dan.
                                Last edited by waarmstrong; 21-11-15, 03:24.

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