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New terrorist attack in Paris, at least 140 dead

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  • #46
    Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
    The body count rise until "more than 150" for now stabilizing at 129.


    What are the chance France goes to an open war with ISIS?
    The president said they will revenge the dead. Not sure of how this will be translate in reality.
    The French President is said to be addressing the French Congress today. The opposition wanted to hold a debate with the President but they delayed it until after the Presiden's address. I wonder if it's gonna be about more platitudes about staying united blablabla or more concrete actions.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
      And why do they bother?
      Most civilized countries have signed-up to the UN convention that dictates how refugees should be received, processed and re-settled etc..

      And, for the most part, the multicultural societies that immigrants have helped create are working fine IMHO.
      Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
        The body count rise until "more than 150" for now stabilizing at 129.


        What are the chance France goes to an open war with ISIS?
        The president said they will revenge the dead. Not sure of how this will be translate in reality.
        I believe that a number of French aircraft bombed Raqqa last night. A drop in the ocean but its a start to break-up the HQ of that group. They seem to be experiencing some setbacks in Iraq also at the moment. But I guess its going to be a loooooong, drawn-out affair to extinguish IS and their affiliates.
        Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by londo_edan View Post
          I believe that a number of French aircraft bombed Raqqa last night. A drop in the ocean but its a start to break-up the HQ of that group. They seem to be experiencing some setbacks in Iraq also at the moment. But I guess its going to be a loooooong, drawn-out affair to extinguish IS and their affiliates.
          Seems like they were given actionable targets by the US forces operating in the area so that they can retaliate immediately. This is one of the most, if not the most, intense air strike from the French airforce in Syria to date (they started the strikes in September).

          Reportedly, the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier with upward of 20 Mirages is arriving in the theater of operation.

          Apparently, there is also an opening of the US intelligence channels to the French forces for a deeper cooperation in the Syrian campaign.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by londo_edan View Post
            Most civilized countries have signed-up to the UN convention that dictates how refugees should be received, processed and re-settled etc..

            And, for the most part, the multicultural societies that immigrants have helped create are working fine IMHO.

            You mean the one that dictates that they resettle in NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES? That one? Yeah, roger that.

            Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey... you're up.

            Meanwhile, in the real world, multiculturalism has been an abject failure and will continue to be a destabilizing influence in countries that eagerly embrace it.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by El_Goretto View Post
              And let's not forget that this whole mess was started by the West and their fuck up in the Middle East in the first place. Now this conflict is growing week after week, involving more and more actors. It can't be ignored anymore.
              This right here is the problem, not the interventionist policies but the belief that "we did it." We didn't.

              We didn't create the Sunni/Shi'a divide nor did we create the Alawites as an ethnoreligion.

              We didn't lead the Arab conquest and colonization of the Levant; remember, the indigenous "Syrian" population did not consider themselves Arab until that time.

              We didn't lead the Ottoman invasion of the region, nor did we administer it for centuries and create "unnatural borders" for as long.

              France did indeed take control of the region following the break up of the Ottoman holdings.

              Coalition forces did indeed destabilize the region with the invasion of Iraq and dismantling of Saddam Hussein's regime. We have similarly made things worse with the war on terror.

              But started by the West? Nah. Not even close. Their problems are their own, and I strongly suggest that the Arabs, who were the true colonial masters of the region, along with their Turkish successors, have a much, MUCH greater role to play than any Western polity. Quite frankly, these people are our traditional enemies. Our forebears fought tooth and nail to keep them OUT of Europe and now we'll give them the keys to the kingdom?

              It's time to go Chuck Martel on the lot of them.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                These comments are cynical in the extreme. To suggest that Syrians are not fleeing for their lives, but are making calculated decisions to better their economic conditions is simply, to use the poster's catch phrase, hogwash. Hearing such "blame the victim" screeds is depressing, and I hope, not the majority view. America is a better place today because of past opendoor acceptance of immigrants and refugees. It is the nay-sayers, the fearful, the distrustful, and those who don't want "them" to be among "us" who will ultimately be the destroyers of Western liberal democracy and along with it the freedoms we all enjoy. If the West responds as Dan suggests, ISIS terrorist will have set us on the path toward our own demise. We are better than that, I hope.
                Then you can speak to why they're leaving Turkey? If it's not the lure of a better life, what is it? They're clearly not in danger there, and clearly Turkey has an obligation both by UN agreement (as noted above) and by its past (long) colonial history in the region.

                The Aylan Kurdi story really solidified it for me. The father had relocated his family for years away from the fighting, yet he was still "fleeing conflict" by making a perilous (and short) journey to Greece as an entry to the rest of Europe. He got his child killed through his own negligence, yet the rest of us are supposed to open our hearts? WTF?

                Ya'll done lost ya damn minds.

                We've got our own problems, our own conflict seen on the streets. Fix that. Don't go looking for trouble by taking in Syrian (or any other) refugees. I'm so over it. I'm so over the incessant quest to save the world's people.

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                • #53
                  This opinion piece from a former Pakistani ambassador to the US goes over the ground that the problem is an internal one and not entirely down to recent Western actions. The big picture is bigger than some might assume.
                  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dernisers.html
                  "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                  George Bernard Shaw

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by londo_edan View Post
                    Most civilized countries have signed-up to the UN convention that dictates how refugees should be received, processed and re-settled etc..

                    And, for the most part, the multicultural societies that immigrants have helped create are working fine IMHO.
                    Please pick some European countries that have more or less opened their doors to the multicultural experiment and give real examples of how it is working fine.

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                    • #55
                      I should have chosen my words more carefully: yes, there are underlying religious and ethnic conflicts in the middle east but the power keg was ignited by the West.

                      As for Aylan Kurdi, it's just one example. Yes, some people are abusing the situation and the system. But not everyone is like that so let's not put them all in the same basket.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lantern View Post
                        This opinion piece from a former Pakistani ambassador to the US goes over the ground that the problem is an internal one and not entirely down to recent Western actions. The big picture is bigger than some might assume.
                        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dernisers.html
                        That is an interesting article. The author is very right to point out that dropping more bombs and humiliating Muslims militarily will just increase recruiting pool for Terror_group.3.0.
                        Terror is a strategy. One cannot win a war against a strategy, the very idea is absurd from the start. France might make the same mistake that US did.

                        Waging a war of ideology hasn't been successful either. One cannot argue with extreme version of political Islam by pointing to Al-Quran, US has sponsored quite a few projects like this without much effect. One might perhaps have more success by providing a more realistic second look at a so-called Golden Age of Islam. There is a bit of a fairy tale version of that part of history that many young Muslims are taught, that depicts a peaceful, tolerant and orderly society run according to Islamic ideals. No wonder many people want to go back to that state of affairs. It's a powerful vision in this insecure global era.

                        In reality, Arab empire collapsed within 150 years from it's inception. Some parts held out longer than others, but as a central unifying principle of a large multicultural empire, Islamic caliphate is on par with Mongols in terms of staying power. You got to hand it to Mongols, they ruled over a greater area and a greater cultural diversity and achieved same durability (or lack thereof). When compared to Chinese and Roman staying power it pales in comparison. My point is, if fundamental Muslims could be made to understand that there are actually a lot of cracks in that imagined vision of history they might be more open to creating a fresh vision for the future. This all seems a bit high-brow idealistic, but ideas matter, especially to religious people. There is a set of ideas at work now that also originally came from intellectual leaders.
                        Take my advice, I don't need it.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Kimdub View Post
                          Please pick some European countries that have more or less opened their doors to the multicultural experiment and give real examples of how it is working fine.
                          Most of W Europe, Australia and NZ, US, Canada. True, there are a lot of disenfranchised young people in all of these countries. Yet there are also a high proportion of migrants that have settled there over the last 100 years and are doing great. Classic examples in the UK / US are those from the Indian sub-continent.
                          Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

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                          • #58
                            Here is a very long and detailed analysis of ISIS.

                            http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/

                            The ideological purity of the Islamic State has one compensating virtue: it allows us to predict some of the group’s actions. Osama bin Laden was seldom predictable. He ended his first television interview cryptically. CNN’s Peter Arnett asked him, “What are your future plans?” Bin Laden replied, “You’ll see them and hear about them in the media, God willing.” By contrast, the Islamic State boasts openly about its plans—not all of them, but enough so that by listening carefully, we can deduce how it intends to govern and expand.
                            Take my advice, I don't need it.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by londo_edan View Post
                              Most of W Europe, Australia and NZ, US, Canada. True, there are a lot of disenfranchised young people in all of these countries. Yet there are also a high proportion of migrants that have settled there over the last 100 years and are doing great. Classic examples in the UK / US are those from the Indian sub-continent.
                              Ah ah ah, the magic word is refugee, not immigrant. I don't have any problem with importing skilled human capital; that's the way of the world today. Lawful, skilled immigrants from India, particularly those coming with advanced degrees, are of course going to positively skew perceptions toward them as being a model minority. I myself pointed to actual refugee populations that did well. They do exist, especially when we're taking the cream of the crop.

                              This ain't the cream of the crop. Most refugee populations are not going to be taxpayers from the get go like an Indian on an H1-B visa, a skilled immigrant visa in the United States. They're going to be on the dole, a lot. They may be on the dole for generations. They'll also bring with them their same, tired sectarian problems.

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                              • #60
                                Immigration is a complex subject. Show me a simplistic solution and I'll show you a wrong one.

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