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  • #31
    Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
    As for bettering education, that will take ages for Indonesia to catch up. If they do want to work on a better education, they should focus on the village and perhaps tidy up university standard. One thing that they need to work on is cutting down scholarship overseas. It's useless. You know why? What is the reason for Indonesians studying overseas? For a better education? Of course. Now tell me who are the recipients of this scholarship? Middle and upper class as they know where to get information about scholarship. I think AUSAID is reviewing its scholarship program. It is better for development organisations such as AUSAID or USAID to fund a better facilities at universities than paying some middle class Jakartans to study in Chicago or Sydney.
    Yes, before worrying about a foreign education for the more affluent, they need to get to work on what domestic education is doing, or, in this case, not doing. The entire course load needs to change to prepare everyone for higher education. This memory stuff needs to change to actually understanding a subject. The change needs to start at a higher level then just the students. Let's face it, the teachers were taught the same way their students are being taught. Of course, bringing religion into the picture, it is my opinion that religion here restricts the children from learning and understanding things to take them into a more successful future. It's is just too old fashioned to go forward.

    There was a gathering of the neighborhood youth at the local masjeet yesterday. The children were being spoken to about being good children, obeying their parents, giving all to Allah in their life work ahead of them and so on. In the talks the narrator decided to speak to the children about personal hygiene. The children were between maybe 4 years and 17 years. He started explaining the proper ways to go to the bathroom. He said that after you poo or pee you should always wash yourself but, if there is no water available to use a rock. OK, nothing said as to where you require a rock for this and what you should do with it afterwards. Didn't really say why there would be no water available either. I couldn't help but wonder why he wasn't saying that everywhere needs access to water if there is none now. How the children should always help out ensuring that water is always available to their needs? All I know is that from now on I'm looking at any rocks I may be stepping on and not picking up any.

    It's just time to get into the 21st Century.
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    • #32
      Good point Pony. Same for these scholarship programs for the underprivileged in 3rd world countries, offered in Europe. There are many of those. But it always ends up being the upper middle class getting them.

      Something else is, that quite many don't return of course. They prefer to stay (job perspective, relationship, ...) or take over the parents' business* so in fact Indonesia does not even benefit that much from the international students.


      *I know two pet shops close by, which are owned by young ladies; one studied Finance in Australia (amazing accent) and the other Psychology in Amsterdam. Now they sell cat food in their parents' stores. Same for some of the stores in Glodok; when the kids came back it was clear what their future would be. Also, there are medical doctors and lawyers in the f-i-l who got their degrees abroad but because of job perspectives and/or issues with diploma equalization chose for other fields of work (e.g. real estate).
      Last edited by jstar; 25-06-15, 11:42. Reason: added some examples
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      • #33
        I'm not well placed for talk again people starting "another" food business... As it is what we (me and my wife) are doing!

        In relation with the school, indonesian are way more learned to learning by heart and follow order and very little if not none about creativity and self accomplisment.
        You can easily see the result with people with very low imagination at creating business.

        My own business lay solely on this (and marketing which seem to be totaly unknow of indonesian), everyone this only copy what other does.
        All resto serve the same food, with the same recipe, with the same sauce, with the same taste.

        It was very easy to take a share of the market and create a reputation.

        And this principle of *no brainy copy business* is apply to everything.
        Here now it start to have hotel who close down because it have way too much... And they are still building!

        The school system definitively have his impact on how the society evolve.
        Last edited by PhilippeD; 25-06-15, 11:49.
        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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        • #34
          I can imagine it is much more stimulating and exciting to create alternative energy solutions for cars, houses and public transportation. Or to implement some one-of-a-kind business idea. (Remember all these western guys who come by with a questionnaire every 6 months with a 'unique' concept that will help against pollution or poverty? Where are they now?)

          But the fact of life is, is that food is here so important that starting up a horeca facility is much easier to implement, will generate income faster and has a bigger chance to succeed.
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          • #35
            Want a better future for Indonesia. Teach the children that it is OK to dream and imagine. It is OK to pursue those dreams. Make sure the tools are in place for the youth to go after whatever they want. Teach the children that it is OK to question lessons they are learning.

            OK, reality, none of the above will happen and Indonesia stays the same. Or worse.
            [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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            • #36
              I wasa going to said the same than jstar, sending kid studying at international is pretty useless for indonesia.

              Take the story of scoot in "foreing welcome in indo" tread. The girl who study abroad face so much trouble when she come back and work in indo that she simply give up and move out the country.


              For come back to my own small business, at the beginning my wife have a lot of pressure from her own parent to size DOWN our business and the quality of our product.
              They are still commenting about our price range which too much high to their taste... They have the general "cheap" indonesian mentality.

              The only thing they can believe being business possible is cheap cheap cheap cheap stuff.
              La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                As for bettering education, that will take ages for Indonesia to catch up. If they do want to work on a better education, they should focus on the village and perhaps tidy up university standard. One thing that they need to work on is cutting down scholarship overseas. It's useless. You know why? What is the reason for Indonesians studying overseas? For a better education? Of course. Now tell me who are the recipients of this scholarship? Middle and upper class as they know where to get information about scholarship. I think AUSAID is reviewing its scholarship program. It is better for development organisations such as AUSAID or USAID to fund a better facilities at universities than paying some middle class Jakartans to study in Chicago or Sydney.
                Hi Pony,

                I Disagreed with your opinion about scholarship program. I think Scholarship programs are beneficial for fostering beneficial relationships between nations and cultures, especially on Masters and Phd levels.
                By Studying aboard, these scholarships recipients will experiences live in other cultures and develop personal ties/affinity to the host countries. Majority Scholarships recipients are future leaders of this country. and most of them will go back to Indonesia, their education and experiences from abroad will be beneficial to the public sectors, private sectors, and relationships between Indonesia and hosts countries.

                Actually Indonesian government by law has to allocated 20% of Government Budget for education. I Hope the new education minister will be able to use the funds more effectively than last minister.

                Best Regards,

                frans

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                • #38
                  I don't disagree with you that inter-country relationships can be improved by scholarships abroad, Frans. But it doesn't really improve the level of education of the Indonesian youth in general, does it? And that is key, not only for the happy few.
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by fransgg View Post
                    Hi Pony,

                    I Disagreed with your opinion about scholarship program. I think Scholarship programs are beneficial for fostering beneficial relationships between nations and cultures, especially on Masters and Phd levels.
                    By Studying aboard, these scholarships recipients will experiences live in other cultures and develop personal ties/affinity to the host countries. Majority Scholarships recipients are future leaders of this country. and most of them will go back to Indonesia, their education and experiences from abroad will be beneficial to the public sectors, private sectors, and relationships between Indonesia and hosts countries.

                    Actually Indonesian government by law has to allocated 20% of Government Budget for education. I Hope the new education minister will be able to use the funds more effectively than last minister.

                    Best Regards,

                    frans
                    Majority scholarship recipients are future leaders of the country? Hmmmm does Berkeley Mafia ring the bell? What's good about a bunch of US graduated technocrats who messed around with the lives of more than 200 millions people? Tell me what experience do these middle class kids get living in other countries? I've seen many Indonesian students overseas mingling with their own people, going to movies or shopping together like a school of tadpole. People from other countries do it too but not as much as Asian people.

                    If I were the minister of education, I will send them to India, Brazil, Cuba instead of countries where they can upload pictures in iconic buildings for their facebook profile.

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                    • #40
                      Conclusion about the school solution, it would definitively had help the young generation, but it is way too much late, it's not school who will help them, no more.

                      I just hope the gov.... Nah I have no hope on them... I just hope indonesia will shake up their own indonesian pride and request better schooling for their younger generation.

                      Schooling is a solution for future problem, not present, as it take many year for give a right formation.
                      We will need to look at something else for the present problem.
                      La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The main problem for this kind of problem is the solution can't be a simple "rabbit out of a hat" or a single solution taken independently.
                        It's a society, everything is linked to other.

                        Indonesian official constantly repeat they want more foreign investment in indo and mostly everyone on this forum agree with this. Myself I agree too, but I don't think this alone will do the trick.

                        Now with indonesia (don't know which dept) put higher restriction to foreign investment, with depnaker (menpower) who make it more and more though to get work permit and reducing their lenght by half for everything else than manager and teacher.
                        Add to that the rampaging corruption and legal system who make "it's mark" (JIS and many other public case)

                        What are the chance for indonesia to bring foreing investment into their land?

                        Because for now, the overall future for indo don't really look brighter.
                        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                          Majority scholarship recipients are future leaders of the country? Hmmmm does Berkeley Mafia ring the bell? What's good about a bunch of US graduated technocrats who messed around with the lives of more than 200 millions people? Tell me what experience do these middle class kids get living in other countries? I've seen many Indonesian students overseas mingling with their own people, going to movies or shopping together like a school of tadpole. People from other countries do it too but not as much as Asian people.

                          If I were the minister of education, I will send them to India, Brazil, Cuba instead of countries where they can upload pictures in iconic buildings for their facebook profile.

                          Hi Pony,

                          Berkeley Mafia? Their policies were good for Indonesian economics development during 1970s to 1980s. By early 1990s, Suharto starts making his own economics policies (sidelined his technocrats advice) and become more concern with his children businesses and cronies.
                          Imagine if these Berkeley mafia went to study economic PhD in Cuba, Indonesia’s economy will be in shambles.

                          I mention about Masters and PhD scholarships (from overseas) are the most beneficial. After studies, these master and PhD scholars can go back to Indonesia and practice or teach what they learned abroad.
                          Master students and PhD students are more mature and most of them develop and maintain networks with their fellow students and professors, long after they finish studies.
                          This will immensely help the quality of Indonesian Universities, Government ministries and private sectors.

                          If Asian students mixing with other Asian students in Aussie or USA. From my experiences in USA, It is easier for new foreign students from abroad to mix with other new foreign students due to language and cultural barriers with native’s students.
                          If English is your second language, it will take time to master the language. new foreign students talk English more slowly compared with native speakers. Often is much easier to make friends with other new Asian students since we have same difficulties and circumstances.

                          Agreed with you, most young Indonesian students abroad(undergraduate and majority are not on scholarships) like to hang out together with other Indonesian. Young Adults, thinking only study to get good grades and having fun. But we do make friends with other students in schools (both native students and foreign students). Anyway, It’s quite common for foreign students to hang around with students from same country.

                          Benefits from studying abroad? For me, Better education quality (if you study at reputable universities abroad), learn English , make friends and networking with people from different countries, you learn new cultures and appreciate more your own culture.


                          I think Indonesia Labor laws are more responsible for creating lot unemployment for young Indonesian compared with education quality. You can improve education quality, but unemployment will be still very high if Labor laws discourage Investment and hiring workers.
                          These labor laws discourage investors from investing in labor-intensive industries, and encourage factories and companies to hire workers as few as possible.

                          Best Regards,

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by fransgg View Post
                            Hi Pony,

                            Berkeley Mafia? Their policies were good for Indonesian economics development during 1970s to 1980s. By early 1990s, Suharto starts making his own economics policies (sidelined his technocrats advice) and become more concern with his children businesses and cronies.
                            Imagine if these Berkeley mafia went to study economic PhD in Cuba, Indonesia’s economy will be in shambles.

                            I mention about Masters and PhD scholarships (from overseas) are the most beneficial. After studies, these master and PhD scholars can go back to Indonesia and practice or teach what they learned abroad.
                            Master students and PhD students are more mature and most of them develop and maintain networks with their fellow students and professors, long after they finish studies.
                            This will immensely help the quality of Indonesian Universities, Government ministries and private sectors.

                            If Asian students mixing with other Asian students in Aussie or USA. From my experiences in USA, It is easier for new foreign students from abroad to mix with other new foreign students due to language and cultural barriers with native’s students.
                            If English is your second language, it will take time to master the language. new foreign students talk English more slowly compared with native speakers. Often is much easier to make friends with other new Asian students since we have same difficulties and circumstances.

                            Agreed with you, most young Indonesian students abroad(undergraduate and majority are not on scholarships) like to hang out together with other Indonesian. Young Adults, thinking only study to get good grades and having fun. But we do make friends with other students in schools (both native students and foreign students). Anyway, It’s quite common for foreign students to hang around with students from same country.

                            Benefits from studying abroad? For me, Better education quality (if you study at reputable universities abroad), learn English , make friends and networking with people from different countries, you learn new cultures and appreciate more your own culture.


                            I think Indonesia Labor laws are more responsible for creating lot unemployment for young Indonesian compared with education quality. You can improve education quality, but unemployment will be still very high if Labor laws discourage Investment and hiring workers.
                            These labor laws discourage investors from investing in labor-intensive industries, and encourage factories and companies to hire workers as few as possible.

                            Best Regards,
                            Please do tell what were good policies in the 1970s-80s Indonesia? The glorious time of development program launched by the New Order took place around 1970s when the oil price went up and helped the country economic. But what happened after that? By opening up itself to the market, Indonesia now has no power to negotiate with multinational company. This neo-liberal policy took its toll when monetary crisis hit the country in 1997.

                            What do these graduates practice at their university? I can understand if studying abroad benefits medical scientists but is there any field where Indonesian graduates apply what they have learnt overseas?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                              Please do tell what were good policies in the 1970s-80s Indonesia? The glorious time of development program launched by the New Order took place around 1970s when the oil price went up and helped the country economic. But what happened after that? By opening up itself to the market, Indonesia now has no power to negotiate with multinational company. This neo-liberal policy took its toll when monetary crisis hit the country in 1997.

                              What do these graduates practice at their university? I can understand if studying abroad benefits medical scientists but is there any field where Indonesian graduates apply what they have learnt overseas?
                              Berkeley Mafia policies of economics reforms was able to reduce inflation rate from 650% in 1966 to 13% in 1969.
                              The Indonesia economic growth rate was averaging 6.5% from late 1960's to 1997.

                              Berkeley mafia was blamed for the economic crisis 1997. But during oil boom in mid 1970s, and 1990s, these Technocrats lose their influences in setting government economic policy.
                              IMHO the crisis 1997 was more damaging to Indonesian economy due to nationalistic economic policy in 1990s ( Timor Car National car) corruption and cronyism.

                              If indonesia don't open up to market in 1970s, who going to invest ? how you develop the country when the country was poor but rich in natural resources. Has big populations but not enough jobs.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Mafia

                              These Graduates practices and teach according to their field of studies; economics, public health, computers, sciences, business ,laws, engineering, medicine, tax laws, etc

                              a lot professors at good Indonesian Universities have degrees from well known universities abroad.


                              Best Regards,
                              Last edited by fransgg; 26-06-15, 19:12.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by fransgg View Post
                                These Graduates practices and teach according to their field of studies; economics, public health, computers, sciences, business ,laws, engineering, medicine, tax laws, etc

                                a lot professors at good Indonesian Universities have degrees from well known universities abroad.

                                Best Regards,

                                The country indeed has plenty of natural resources. But does the country get more of the revenue coming from these resources? Who owns Freeport? A state-owned company? NOT. I do get that inflation was kept under control but Indonesia had received a huge amount of fund as foreign debt from international funding agencies. When the rate went pretty high in 1997, many were affected.

                                What these professors do with their knowledge they've got from overseas? Let me tell you something, if you want to study about Indonesia overseas you learn from western scholars who study Indonesia. In economics, you learn what Indonesianists say about the country. For politics and nationalism you learn from Benedict Anderson. None of them come from Indonesia. Now you send these Indonesians overseas to learn about their own country through westerners' eyes. How sad is that? Intellectualism in Indonesia has waned ages ago. They can't even compete with India.

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