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Call for Mutual Respect During Ramadan - Seems Reasonable ?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
    While I don't believe places that can be avoided by those fasting should be closed, I can kind of see the warung argument (as far as street stalls) - it would probably be pretty tough and tempting for someone that is fasting to have to walk down the street past open stalls of food cooking with all the related smells and sounds....maybe they should have certain "designated" areas, away from normal foot traffic, for the food stalls to operate....
    I can see the point for the closure of warungs, but I believe it should be optional, with the rights of those who choose to remain open being also respected. The sellers, if they are Muslim, do not violate the fast merely by selling food or drink to non-Muslims or to Muslims who have exemptions from fasting (traveling, pregnant / nursing women, ill, etc).

    As to the temptation part as you mentioned, maybe not so difficult as you may think. For those who are fasting, they (we) do what we need to do, simple as that. If we experience hunger or temptation, it is our responsibility to "deal with it", and if we aren't strong enough to handle the "temptation" of what we see or smell, or if it has the power to hurt us in some way to see or smell it, I think that indicates a problem with our own lack of willpower or mental strength.

    When I was fasting at work in previous years and non-Muslim colleagues would apologize for eating or drinking in my presence, I always told them not to worry about it and that no apology was necessary, and I meant it. I can understand how they might feel and appreciate their politeness in mentioning it, in a typical Indonesian expression of courtesy, but it really didn't bother me that much ... I knew that it was okay for them to eat and drink and not okay for me, and why ... even a fairly young child can be capable of understanding the difference.

    Here's a blog post which expresses the "mutual tolerance" side of the issue rather well, I think:


    http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.co...ain-ignorance/
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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    • #17
      Hi Mr B

      Do you think you could have written this if the fasting period were 15 hours, as I understand it is, in some parts of Europe?

      On a related point, I am always looking for a word to describe my "respect" - meant in a nice way - for those who do fast. Perhaps you would say there is no need to express such amazement/appreciation/admiration, but at times I do feel the need to remark on this.

      I will take a look at that article.

      I might note that whilst traveling on a Garuda flight yesterday during the buka puasa time, things went along as normal.
      Last edited by johntap; 19-06-15, 07:32.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by johntap View Post
        if the fasting period were 15 hours, as I understand it is, in some parts of Europe?
        It can be even worse; this is the current situation in Western Europe:



        Of course they're lucky during the winter (8.00-16.30)

        Originally posted by johntap View Post
        I might note that whilst traveling on a Garuda flight yesterday during the buka puasa time, things went along as normal.
        Travelers are excempt.
        Last edited by jstar; 19-06-15, 09:45.
        [FONT=arial black]
        [/FONT]

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        • #19
          I don't eat in front of people who fast, and as long as they don't prevent me from eating after all of my reasonable efforts to not eat in front of them, I've got no problems.

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          • #20
            2 hour in the traffic... It is travelling! Right?

            Matter of respect, earlier at 6:30 I go outside and it was the total silent. Nothing more than cricket.
            I ask my wife if they had make the ask for prayer at 6 as I didn't hear it at all.

            Now I can hear ONE far away masjid singing and a few firework.
            Yesterday was the opening and it have a big cacophony at 8:30 but it was already off when I put the kid to bed at 9h.

            Can't tell if it had a morning waking call... I was sleeping!

            Overall one would not make a lot of difference in between now and before.
            La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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            • #21
              Over here the mosques went full blast till 11 PM. During the day it's rather quiet, it's also extremely hot right now. It could be me but it seems to me the restaurants are not as crowded as last year during the breaking of the fast.
              [FONT=arial black]
              [/FONT]

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              • #22
                Originally posted by johntap View Post
                Hi Mr B

                Do you think you could have written this if the fasting period were 15 hours, as I understand it is, in some parts of Europe?

                On a related point, I am always looking for a word to describe my "respect" - meant in a nice way - for those who do fast. Perhaps you would say there is no need to express such amazement/appreciation/admiration, but at times I do feel the need to remark on this.

                I will take a look at that article.

                I might note that whilst traveling on a Garuda flight yesterday during the buka puasa time, things went along as normal.
                Well, let's see, Mr J ... we begin puasa in my household just before the adzaan for first prayer, so about 5-ish, local time, though we're not necessarily pushing it to the last minute ... and we break our fast at around 6:45-ish. By my math that's pretty close to fourteen hours, so I'd have to say yes, I could write what I wrote above without impediment if our fasting period were one hour more (though I admit it would be a long extra hour ... the last hour is always the "longest" one, at least for me, but maybe that feeling will go away, in time).

                And it makes sense to me that things went normally on a Garuda flight at "jam buka puasa", because that's when everyone eats, hence "buka puasa".

                But you do bring up an interesting point, and it has been discussed here before. One of our Indonesian forum members was (maybe still is) living in Kazakhstan, and there are Muslims who fast every year in the far northern reaches of China, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Russia, Greenland ... when Ramadan hits in the summer months, yeah, it's quite a long stretch, though I've heard that in extreme cases they are allowed to just begin and end at the same times as per Arab Saudi.

                I think it is nice that you appreciate / admire and, most importantly "respect" Muslims, presumably including your wife, for fasting, though of course it wouldn't be the breaking point for the Muslims whether non-Muslims appreciated it or not (and I'm sure that many do not).

                If you ever find yourself curious enough to want to know what it "feels like", just try it, at least for a day or two, and see for yourself. Then imagine doing it for thirty days in a row, and Bob's your uncle!
                Last edited by Mister Bule; 20-06-15, 01:26.
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                • #23
                  4:25 am, the "bar" will be closing in about 30 minutes ... (we have already finished eating, I will drink my last glass of water - or two - just before "closing time", istri is already done for the duration).
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                  The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                  • #24
                    I used to fast when I was young, very young. I started my full puasa when I was 9. I remember getting a reward that. Puasa is not as hard as people think (not eating or drinking, but other restrictions are pretty hard). After a while you get used to it. But I have never done fasting more than Indonesia usual hours. There is a discussion in my group that some ulama are trying to make a fatwa for limiting puasa to 15 hours. But I am not sure if the fatwa has gone through.

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                    • #25
                      Thanks for your kind reply Mr B. I have 'observed' my wife fasting 'religiously' (and others of the same 'persuasion' of course) for over 8 years. I have the utmost respect for her completion of this ritual. She goes about it in a no fuss way (after years of 'experience'). My admiration is tempered by concern for her heath - when often she is forced to buka di jalan with a date/water, not getting to 'base' till 7pm. Her driver often takes a date, then rides 1.5 hours home to buka and pray around 9.30. I must point out that my admiration is not like the admiration I felt for Roger Bannister.

                      I am watching a program on Kompas TV about the health effects of the ruku position dll.
                      Last edited by johntap; 20-06-15, 19:08. Reason: love those quotation marks

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                      • #26
                        6:46 PM: Time to eat / drink.
                        [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                        The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                        • #27
                          Well in Medan(?) at least.

                          Jakarta azan magrib is before six pm, then after a date (korma) 'we' pray. Then 'we' eat. As far as I am seeing today.
                          Last edited by johntap; 20-06-15, 19:21.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by johntap View Post
                            In Medan ? at least.

                            Jakarta azan magrib is before six pm, then after a date (korma) 'we' pray. Then 'we' eat. As far as I am seeing today.
                            Yes, I believe your powers of "observation" are sufficiently well-documented. Is that "we" [I[kita[/I] or kami? Surely it's kami, as I haven't been in Jakarta during Ramadan in some 38 years. Anyway, carry on, tally ho. At least you've got a "date" as a consolation prize.
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                            The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

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                            • #29
                              A bit of a faux pas

                              A promotion at a London branch of Tesco's.



                              http://i100.independent.co.uk/articl...an--WJymhL1kzl
                              Last edited by lantern; 25-06-15, 02:06.
                              "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                              George Bernard Shaw

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                              • #30
                                it's probably ok as there is no ACTUAL bacon in there

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