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Freedom of Speech, Multiculturalism, and the role of modern state

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  • #91
    I was listening to Salman Rushdie recently and he is of the opinion that the whole conflict with the 'West' is just a side show. What's really happening, in his opinion, is a battle within Islam itself over who will represent it. He referred to the Saudi funding of schools and mosques as a long term strategy to win that battle and establish Wahhabism as the voice of Islam.
    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #92
      Originally posted by tokektokek View Post
      I would not listen to anything you hear in that newspaper, it is part of the problem. It stirs up hate, encourages divide among humans and does nothing useful for anyone. That "news" paper (along with The Sun and the Daily Express) should not be taken seriously by anyone. It is nicknamed "The Daily Hate Mail" back in the UK for a good reason.
      Who owns this paper?
      Things happen for a reason...

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      • #93
        Originally posted by lantern View Post
        I was listening to Salman Rushdie recently and he is of the opinion that the whole conflict with the 'West' is just a side show. What's really happening, in his opinion, is a battle within Islam itself over who will represent it. He referred to the Saudi funding of schools and mosques as a long term strategy to win that battle and establish Wahhabism as the voice of Islam.
        Old news but still a very important point, L. Here's an article from 2002 which describes it in more detail:
        http://www.newrepublic.com/docprint....8&s=foer111802

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        • #94
          so how about them 1000 lashings in saudi ?

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          • #95
            http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-hebdo-protest

            Muslims from other part of the word were offended and attacked French cultural centre and cafe in Nigeria. As long as that shit happened elsewhere or miserable countries, it won't cause any blip in the west.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
              http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-hebdo-protest

              Muslims from other part of the word were offended and attacked French cultural centre and cafe in Niger. As long as that shit happened elsewhere or miserable countries, it won't cause any blip in the west.
              Do you think that violence should be an effective and reliable way for extremest groups to get their message of hate and intolerance broadcast to the world? You would like to increase the coverage these groups get (when and wherever they strike)? Or, are you contrasting the two in a request to reduce the coverage the attack on Charlie Hebdo is receiving? Which do you want, more of one, or less of the other?

              I don't think you would find the ratio of Niger/France coverage following these attacks would be much of an outlier compared to the ratio of coverage Niger/France normally receive in western countries.

              What is this root cause of this crusade? I don't get it.
              Last edited by Happyman; 19-01-15, 17:46.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                Do you think that violence should be an effective and reliable way for extremest groups to get their message of hate and intolerance broadcast to the world? You would like to increase the coverage these groups get (when and wherever they strike)? Or, are you contrasting the two in a request to reduce the coverage the attack on Charlie Hebdo is receiving? Which do you want, more of one, or less of the other?

                I don't think you would find the ratio of Nigeria/France coverage following these attacks would be much of an outlier compared to the ratio of coverage Nigeria/France normally receive in western countries.

                What is this root cause of this crusade? I don't get it.
                No violence won't be an effective way to get the message across. The protests against the publication of Charlie Hebdo's denigrating cartoons in Nigeria and other countries showed that this issue does not belong to France but become a global one. Clearly, the French government failure to address this issue at home will have an impact abroad. France can't ignore that muslim communities in other countries will retaliate. Making immigration policy harsher and doing a random search amongst migrant communities, particularly Muslim, in order to crack down terrrorist cells won't make it any better.

                I was posting this news to show that the issue is not domestic but rather a global one. The training grounds are mostly in poor countries not in London or Brussel. But the perpetrators can be in both cities.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                  No violence won't be an effective way to get the message across. The protests against the publication of Charlie Hebdo's denigrating cartoons in Nigeria and other countries showed that this issue does not belong to France but become a global one. Clearly, the French government failure to address this issue at home will have an impact abroad. France can't ignore that muslim communities in other countries will retaliate. Making immigration policy harsher and doing a random search amongst migrant communities, particularly Muslim, in order to crack down terrrorist cells won't make it any better.

                  I was posting this news to show that the issue is not domestic but rather a global one. The training grounds are mostly in poor countries not in London or Brussel. But the perpetrators can be in both cities.
                  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if I am, I keep misunderstanding your posts in the same way... There have been several now that seem to be about how it isn't fair or isn't right that the thousands killed in in Nigeria are getting less coverage than the tens killed in France. I agree with you that one life should be valued in the same way as another, all other things being equal. I just don't see how dedicating weeks of news coverage to a group of murderers or rioters would necessarily honor the slain or victims. That is a general statement. I think that terrorists should be frozen out of mass media by the unanimous independent choice of the media outlets. Let's don't help them plant their seeds.

                  More specifically, some of the Charlie Hebdo coverage has been about the things that Charlie Hebdo supported, debates about freedom of speech, like we had here some pages ago, stories of people uniting to honor the victims, stories about who the victims were and what they believed in. If we had more coverage of Boko Haram, or the cafe and church attacks in Niger, what would the stories be about? They would be about extremest crazy people doing crazy things. There is little chance of anything positive or useful, just another look at the face of evil. I've seen enough of it. I wish there was no coverage and in-depth reporting about extremists. Make martyrs of the victims if you can, but let the crazy people sew to the wind.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                    If we had more coverage of Boko Haram, or the cafe and church attacks in Niger, what would the stories be about? They would be about extremest crazy people doing crazy things. There is little chance of anything positive or useful, just another look at the face of evil.
                    Might not one positive aspect be that (in the current cases) members of the ummah are confronted with the deeds committed in the name of their religion?

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                    • Originally posted by john madden View Post
                      Might not one positive aspect be that (in the current cases) members of the ummah are confronted with the deeds committed in the name of their religion?
                      Isn't that what these people want though?
                      Things happen for a reason...

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                      • Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                        Isn't that what these people want though?
                        Who are "these people" please Michelle?

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                        • OK, here is what I just don't understand. (besides French spelling) Here you are going to have a group of Muslims demonstrate in front of the French Embassy because a group of cartoonist showed an image, (hand drawn) of Mohammed (no mention of the other religious leaders) within their publication located in a city of France. France is bad because they offer freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of expression.

                          Muslims are upset because they feel that any depictions of Mohammed is really, really bad and forbidden. OK, what about all the other Profits they believe in? Why are they fair game in publications and on walls throughout the world? Worse yet, why no big International Order of the Muslims against anyone who places a depiction of God someplace? I mean, in the chain of command, isn't God still quite a bit higher then Mohammed? You would think that the Muslims place Mohammed higher then God. Let's face it, if God didn't want any depictions of himself/herself/itself anywhere, damn straight there would't be any? Just who is in charge?
                          [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                          • Originally posted by john madden View Post
                            Who are "these people" please Michelle?
                            Sorry. Referring to the terrorists and media coverage.

                            They seem to want the attention? And they own up to these cowardly crimes...wanting the world to know it was them. I've never really understood that part of it. It's sick.
                            Things happen for a reason...

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