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Freedom of Speech, Multiculturalism, and the role of modern state

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  • Freedom of Speech, Multiculturalism, and the role of modern state

    It is totally beyond comprehension that cartoons could drive people to such a rage that they will commit cold-blooded atrocity and murder. How deranged are these people?? This rabid fundamentalism is a grotesque cancer on all societies but the only cure lies within the Muslim communities themselves. This will not be achieved by drones bombing from 10,000m it has to be fixed by Muslims who need to reclaim their religion from these evil twisted psychopaths. Sadly there is a deafening silence from Muslim communities all over the world......where are the voices of the vast majority of muslims who claim to deplore this sort of behaviour?



    MOD NOTE:

    All posts here originated from the Charlie Hebdo thread. Although partially related to the event, some topics discussed here are better under a different heading. (Halfmanhalfbeer, I am sorry that I use your post to create this note. I can't make a new post that makes moderator's note as the first post in this thread).
    Last edited by ponyexpress; 11-01-15, 07:35.

  • #2
    Originally posted by halfmanhalfbeer View Post
    It is totally beyond comprehension that cartoons could drive people to such a rage that they will commit cold-blooded atrocity and murder. How deranged are these people?? This rabid fundamentalism is a grotesque cancer on all societies but the only cure lies within the Muslim communities themselves. This will not be achieved by drones bombing from 10,000m it has to be fixed by Muslims who need to reclaim their religion from these evil twisted psychopaths. Sadly there is a deafening silence from Muslim communities all over the world......where are the voices of the vast majority of muslims who claim to deplore this sort of behaviour?
    I reckon it's going to take generations for the multicultural societies in the West to come to terms with Islamic fundamentalism and I really fear that there are going to be many more deaths, on all sides, before that happens.
    Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by londo_edan View Post
      I reckon it's going to take generations for the multicultural societies in the West to come to terms with Islamic fundamentalism and I really fear that there are going to be many more deaths, on all sides, before that happens.
      Not sure if I missed something, but if these guys are so radical, so sick, so deranged...is it really appropriate for the West (or anyone!) to "come to terms" with these idiots? Is it not more that these twisted individuals need to be not tolerated by anyone, forced into outcast and prosecuted?
      Things happen for a reason...

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      • #4
        The very same day 30 people died in a suicide bomb attack in Yemen, presumably all Muslims. My point is that nobody's safe today, Muslim or otherwise. These people don't think twice about killing fellow Muslims, the attack on Charlie Hebdo shouldn't come as a surprise.

        Syria and northwest Iraq are becoming another breeding ground for ultra violent Islamic fundamentalism due to ISIS. Until ISIS is fully defeated expect worse things to come.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
          It's sad news but this tragedy will open up many topics of discussion on multiculturalism. As country gets more religiously and ethnically diverse, it requires all citizens to be more sensitive about other culture and belief. We can no longer hide behind the shield of 'freedom of expression'. I am not saying that these radicals have the right to defend what they believed even through violent means, but these journalists should understand that mockery of religious belief, particularly Islam is not welcomed by its adherents. Mocking Muhammad the prophet for Muslim is just as bad as making fun of holocaust for most Western countries.
          PonyEx whilst I agree with your sentiment the problem comes on where do you draw the line? This question is why in many Western countries freedom of speech is enshrined in law. Whether it was right or wrong to print the cartoons is not to my mind the issue, it is the right of a person to print or say what he feels without having to expect some feral brainwashed manic to burst through his door with an AK47.

          The holocaust has been often mocked, and questioned and denied, but I cannot recall any Jews resorting to slaughtering innocent people as a result of these comments?

          This is such a grim event, and as another poster has said it will only create deeper divisions in France which is already experiencing a drift to the right. Germany has its anti-Islamification marches, the right wing is on the march in the UK and across the Scandinavian countries........this isn't going to end well.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by halfmanhalfbeer View Post

            This is such a grim event, and as another poster has said it will only create deeper divisions in France which is already experiencing a drift to the right. Germany has its anti-Islamification marches, the right wing is on the march in the UK and across the Scandinavian countries........this isn't going to end well.
            Yep, this is a real concern. However I doubt (hope) that the lurch to the right will be long-lived and that it's unlikely UKIP will win more than a handful of seats in May.

            Lets also hope the french police arrest the gunmen soon and bang them up for a very long stretch. They did appear to be worryingly heavily armed, wearing flak jackets and we'll organized / trained: perhaps fighters back from ISIS.
            Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

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            • #7
              If we think about it, the reaction is similar (but of course not the violent action) to when someone insults one's mother or a loved one. We'd get angry, wouldn't we?

              While I would agree that people could and should be free to protest against activities and ideas that is different than theirs, it shouldn't impinge on the other group's rights to do the same. Protesting against TV shows? Discussion meetings? Classic works of art (I've heard of Ms. Saigon shows being cancelled at local events)? C'mon, now the shoe is on the other foot.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by halfmanhalfbeer View Post
                It is totally beyond comprehension that cartoons could drive people to such a rage that they will commit cold-blooded atrocity and murder. How deranged are these people?? This rabid fundamentalism is a grotesque cancer on all societies but the only cure lies within the Muslim communities themselves. This will not be achieved by drones bombing from 10,000m it has to be fixed by Muslims who need to reclaim their religion from these evil twisted psychopaths. Sadly there is a deafening silence from Muslim communities all over the world......where are the voices of the vast majority of muslims who claim to deplore this sort of behaviour?
                To answer this I need to share with you a recent episode from my own life. While participating in a post on social media, my wife defended a professor of gender studies who brought her class to a church. The purpose of the field trip was to learn more about the perspective of women's roles in Christianity. Comments about the professor and her female students ranged from things like...

                "bury the teachers alive." to...

                "all those girls should be raped in the church." to...

                "the professor and students should be gunned down with an AK-47."

                For standing up to these comments, for speaking up for religious minorities and common sense and because she didn't toe the line, my wife was also threatened with corrective rape and violence. When I spoke up for her, I was called a Jew as a slur (I consider that an honor; much better than my detractors) and threatened as well. I wish I could say it was mere trolling, but it was a chorus of voices. People didn't speak out against those threats, it was myself and my wife and the professor and her students who were "in the wrong" so much so that we were to be singled out for special torment and threats.

                The reason why you see fewer Muslims speaking out against fundamentalism is that the fundamentalists are willing to threaten genuine reformers at best or kill them at worst. And this, this is just a tiny microcosm of a much larger problem that exists where nominal Muslims carry water for fanatics for fear of being called "not Muslim enough."

                Like the rest of you, I am utterly sick of it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                  The reason why you see fewer Muslims speaking out against fundamentalism is that the fundamentalists are willing to threaten genuine reformers at best or kill them at worst. And this, this is just a tiny microcosm of a much larger problem that exists where nominal Muslims carry water for fanatics for fear of being called "not Muslim enough."
                  You just hit the nail on the head and I am in total agreement with you. Hence the reason we see no or such little reaction from the "mainstream" Muslim (majority) each time there is an atrocity carried out in the name of Islam. We have discussed this before and don't need to cover the ground again. But its this in itself adds further fuel to the suspicion in the west about Muslim sentiment and loyalty. Lets not also forget that the cop shot dead outside the Charlie Hebdo office was actually a Muslim himself.

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                  • #10
                    Dan, I probably can't grasp what you, your wife and other mainstream Muslims go through if you take any type of moderate or liberated stand. But that doesn't change that if the Muslim world doesn't take care of this problem, it will sooner or later get so bad that the world will have to come together and address it. And when it reaches that stage, there will not the the desire to try to separate the good from the bad.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kimdub View Post
                      Dan, I probably can't grasp what you, your wife and other mainstream Muslims go through if you take any type of moderate or liberated stand. But that doesn't change that if the Muslim world doesn't take care of this problem, it will sooner or later get so bad that the world will have to come together and address it. And when it reaches that stage, there will not the the desire to try to separate the good from the bad.
                      You know, before you said this I was thinking back to something I heard Adam "Azzam the American" Gadahn say via as-Sahab media about 5 or 6 years ago. He reasoned that, in the end, non-Muslims will not differentiate between mujahideen and progressive, liberal or moderate Muslims. Therefore, in his view, we should align ourselves with al-Qaeda.

                      And I think some Muslims buy into this line of thinking, that we must close ranks and agree with fanatics whether it be satanic field trips to apostasy or French cartoonists.

                      What you're saying is not exactly the same thing; you're certainly not saying that Muslims should align with al-Qaeda. However, it is similar in that Muslims are expected to find themselves at the business end of an ultimatum. I don't know how true that is, but I do believe that there's a point where people, even Muslims, no longer want to be cowed into submission.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                        What you're saying is not exactly the same thing; you're certainly not saying that Muslims should align with al-Qaeda. However, it is similar in that Muslims are expected to find themselves at the business end of an ultimatum. I don't know how true that is, but I do believe that there's a point where people, even Muslims, no longer want to be cowed into submission.

                        I in no way meant to say or imply anything about an ultimatum. I just simply see that if the problems continue and grow what the end game will ultimately be.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kimdub View Post
                          Dan, I probably can't grasp what you, your wife and other mainstream Muslims go through if you take any type of moderate or liberated stand. But that doesn't change that if the Muslim world doesn't take care of this problem, it will sooner or later get so bad that the world will have to come together and address it. And when it reaches that stage, there will not the the desire to try to separate the good from the bad.
                          I agree with you that this scenario may well happen, but would like to highlight that we have already an example of someone acting in the way you describe, the terrorists who executed a muslim policeman as part of their attack on Charlie Hebdo. I'd say some feel like the ultimatum was given thousands of years ago, and they are now answering. Shame to think the world at large will follow such an inhuman example.
                          Last edited by Happyman; 08-01-15, 17:31.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lantern View Post
                            Throw in the towel you mean? As Rushdie said "respect for religion is code for fear of religion" Mocking a belief system is not the same as mocking an actual historical massacre of millions of people. Here's Rushdie's statement in full

                            "[COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia]“I stand with [/FONT][/COLOR]Charlie Hebdo[COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia], as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity,” he wrote in a statement [/FONT][/COLOR]posted[COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia] by the[/FONT][/COLOR]Guardian[COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia]. Gunmen killed [/FONT][/COLOR]at least 12 people[COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia] in the paper’s offices before fleeing the scene in France’s deadliest terrorist attack in recent memory.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#282828][FONT=georgia]“Religion, a medieval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms,” Rushie wrote. “This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.”[/FONT][/COLOR]
                            Great quote by Salman Rushdie, who understood the threat to freedom of speech a long, long time before most of us.
                            Vengeance is mine; I will repay.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ponyexpress View Post
                              It's sad news but this tragedy will open up many topics of discussion on multiculturalism. As country gets more religiously and ethnically diverse, it requires all citizens to be more sensitive about other culture and belief. We can no longer hide behind the shield of 'freedom of expression'. I am not saying that these radicals have the right to defend what they believed even through violent means, but these journalists should understand that mockery of religious belief, particularly Islam is not welcomed by its adherents. Mocking Muhammad the prophet for Muslim is just as bad as making fun of holocaust for most Western countries.
                              If we are going to say that sensitivity is required from everyone, that'll be the death of religion. Most of the religions I know of teach that those who do not accept "the faith" are in the wrong. Their adherents comment against things that they feel are wrong, from a religious standpoint. They propagate themselves by convincing people that there is something wrong with the way they live their lives, or their current belief structure.

                              If we want to take offense at people publicly saying we are wrong, even scorning and mocking our beliefs and practices, let's not start with the atheists, they are a new belief system and should be given time to adjust. Let's start with all the religions that have spent over a thousand years inspiring conflict and death... Let's have freedom from pastors on tv telling people what they must do to go to heaven. Let's have freedom from them saying it in churches, as well. If we want freedom from satirical newspapers printing satire, it seems reasonable...

                              Yes, I know this is crazy talk. Any discussion about how "Person A" should be free from "Person B's" freedom to will be crazy talk. The two concepts don't mix. You cannot have freedom of expression and freedom from expression in the same place, at the same time. One of the two will be a lie. If free people do not like the "insensitive" message they are hearing, those free people should simply speak louder themselves or turn their tv off. By no means does any free person have the right to gag another's freedom, lest they both lose their freedom.
                              Last edited by Happyman; 08-01-15, 18:18.

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