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Sweden rezognizes Palestinian state

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  • DanInAceh
    replied
    http://www.brookings.edu/research/op...ights-un-cohen

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/...s-get-shunned/

    "Between 1982 and 2013, Japan has conferred refugee status on a total of 622 asylum seekers. In this context, Abe’s plan to liberalize immigration is contradictory, inviting overseas residents to migrate while pushing away migrants already resident in Japan."

    http://www.irinnews.org/report/99991...at-never-comes

    "After many days at sea, they reached Malaysia where Mohammed found work labouring in paddy fields. However, local police regularly stopped him and confiscated his meagre salary and after six months during which the Alis’ asylum application remained undecided, survival had become almost impossible. They decided to sell what was left of Minara’s wedding jewellery to pay a smuggler to organize their passage to Australia from Indonesia."

    Note that they didn't decide to flee to Japan or South Korea. Why's that?

    Leave a comment:


  • DanInAceh
    replied
    Originally posted by Happyman View Post
    @ Dan
    Honestly, I think our difference in this matter is a small and basic one (assuming that you would advise the same were it not for the religious subtext present in this particular case).
    I see it as less harmful and simpler to let people who are now thoroughly established in a place remain there, should they wish to do so. Should someone feel the need to flee from armed conflict, I will welcome them.
    I know less than I should about the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I do not have a horse in this particular race. I would apply this same solution in other places with a similar situation.
    OK. You would welcome them. I see lots of refugees, from very distant places, being accepted in Europe, the United States, Canada and to a lesser degree Australia.

    Now, most of the world's refugee population flees to neighboring states. Pakistan and Turkey have tons of refugees. That's how it normally works, and I can kinda get behind that. I am more likely to welcome refugees from Central America, for example, than from the Middle East. But are they going to flee to China or Japan or South Korea? Of course not, those places ain't gonna take their asses. They rarely ever take refugees, despite being developed or mostly developed economies. So we're stuck with the only countries being willing to accept the Arabs being in Europe and the United States. Why is that OK? Why is it that we're expected to foot the bill and handle all of the shitty fallout that is associated with most refugees?

    I don't want them. Sorry, full up. Endless moronic immigration from all of the world's worst places has had a net negative impact on Western countries. We sorely need more welfare burdens, which is what the majority of refugees become in our countries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Happyman
    replied
    @ Dan
    Honestly, I think our difference in this matter is a small and basic one (assuming that you would advise the same were it not for the religious subtext present in this particular case).
    I see it as less harmful and simpler to let people who are now thoroughly established in a place remain there, should they wish to do so. Should someone feel the need to flee from armed conflict, I will welcome them.
    I know less than I should about the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I do not have a horse in this particular race. I would apply this same solution in other places with a similar situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhilippeD
    replied
    Yah, from the start
    - We should had never create a new state by deporting and isolating his occupant.
    - We should not have give total authority to Israel over the deported (Palestinian).
    - We should not have let Israel build colony (on the best land) in Palestine.
    - We should not have let Israel have full control on the export/import of the Palestine
    - We should not have let Israel prohibit access to international water to palestinian (they are stuck on the first 5 km of shore if they go further they are kill).

    and
    - we should stop complaining thing gone messy there.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanInAceh
    replied
    Eh, you got a wrong'un there Dan. I never said anything about deporting anyone. Some Palestinian friends of mine told me that (paraphrase)"We have nothing, everything is gone. We don't want to fight, but there is nothing else for us." So, you have people who don't want to fight, but have no home to return to... offer them a home. I think you know how Israel came to be full of Jewish people... They voluntarily moved there. I'm suggesting the same opportunity. I'm not deporting anyone.
    Seems like the world is more or less constantly footing the bill now.
    The highlighted portion is part of the problem. If Israel is the "little nation that could," why the fuck is everyone else paying for this shit? They've got a developed economy, let them handle it.

    What you're suggesting is deportation, no matter how you dress it up. Meir Kahane also offered to give them financial incentives to leave, doesn't mean that he wanted them there or wanted to work out the problem.



    Bit of a nationalist, are we?
    They don't belong in the United States or anywhere other than in what is today Israel. It's not that I'm a nationalist, far from it, but I am NOT a fan of refugee programs. They are almost always the least desirable kind of immigrant. We are approaching a future where the fate of nations rests on the developed human capital they can draw in. Refugees have no place in such a future.

    I already replied to the fact that Americans are currently footing the bill, as is the rest of the world. No, I do not note that Israel is exonerated of any wrong doing. Perhaps this author you quote has done so? You said above that the problem is "intractable", but there are many solutions available if either or both sides want peace. I think you noted one here... Perhaps, since you dislike my original (at least for me) solution to the problem, and would rather the current "solution" (ie, "We want our old land back and will live here in misery until we get it") you can just say what your desired outcome for this conflict is?
    There's your problem right there: neither side wants peace. See the issue? They play this game for show, to bide their time. This is especially true of Israel, whose long-term plan is just to settle all of it and slowly push out all of the Palestinians. They want precisely what you're suggesting. I am positive that the average Israeli would nod sagely at your suggestion, because it's totally what they want: a country without Arabs. (Note that the Arabs similarly want a country without Jews, just your proposal went in one direction.

    My preference is to stay out of it because, as I noted before, it really has no answer. It's a fool's errand, the failed peace process of the last 30+ years should have clued you in to that. The only long-term solution that eventually will happen is winner take all. They're NOT going to coexist peacefully, and the creation of a modern state of Israel was a terrible idea. It's a done deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Happyman
    replied
    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    So, your solution is Meir Kahane's solution, to deport the Arabs and then Israel will be ethnically cleansed. In addition, other countries will foot the bill, so I suppose yours is even more ultra-nationalist than Meir Kahane's.
    Eh, you got a wrong'un there Dan. I never said anything about deporting anyone. Some Palestinian friends of mine told me that (paraphrase)"We have nothing, everything is gone. We don't want to fight, but there is nothing else for us." So, you have people who don't want to fight, but have no home to return to... offer them a home. I think you know how Israel came to be full of Jewish people... They voluntarily moved there. I'm suggesting the same opportunity. I'm not deporting anyone.
    Seems like the world is more or less constantly footing the bill now.

    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    I don't want Palestinians in my country, really. They have their own desire for a country there in Eretz Israel. Give them land there, after all, the Jewish National Fund holds the vast majority of Israel's land in trust "for the Jewish people" to the exclusion of everyone else. Seems like there's enough to go around.
    Bit of a nationalist, are we?

    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    Note that Americans are expected to dole out the land and that Israelis are exonerated from any responsibility or wrong doing. Got a troublesome population? Just ship 'em off to America. This is almost word for word what Meir Kahane spelled out in his work "Why They Must Go."
    I already replied to the fact that Americans are currently footing the bill, as is the rest of the world. No, I do not note that Israel is exonerated of any wrong doing. Perhaps this author you quote has done so? You said above that the problem is "intractable", but there are many solutions available if either or both sides want peace. I think you noted one here... Perhaps, since you dislike my original (at least for me) solution to the problem, and would rather the current "solution" (ie, "We want our old land back and will live here in misery until we get it") you can just say what your desired outcome for this conflict is?

    Leave a comment:


  • DanInAceh
    replied
    Originally posted by Happyman View Post
    Get a coalition of the willing together and give land to Palestinians in new sponsor states:
    Take a group of people totaling 100 or so (family based where possible), offer them x acres of land to come and live in a certain community in your country.
    Provide them with government support for x amount of time while they adapt to their new environment and receive language/vocational training.
    Put them on the citizenship track. (!)
    So, your solution is Meir Kahane's solution, to deport the Arabs and then Israel will be ethnically cleansed. In addition, other countries will foot the bill, so I suppose yours is even more ultra-nationalist than Meir Kahane's.

    I don't want Palestinians in my country, really. They have their own desire for a country there in Eretz Israel. Give them land there, after all, the Jewish National Fund holds the vast majority of Israel's land in trust "for the Jewish people" to the exclusion of everyone else. Seems like there's enough to go around.

    Originally posted by Happyman View Post
    The issue started with a question of land ownership, let's finish it with one. You can have seedling communities of Palestinians planted all over the mid-west.
    Note that Americans are expected to dole out the land and that Israelis are exonerated from any responsibility or wrong doing. Got a troublesome population? Just ship 'em off to America. This is almost word for word what Meir Kahane spelled out in his work "Why They Must Go."

    http://archive.org/stream/RabbiKahan...st_Go_djvu.txt

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    (1) ... The Palestinian question is difficult

    (2) and receives significantly more attention than other issues in the developing world ... there are other people in the world struggling in far worse conditions who don't get even a thousandth of the attention and resources that the Palestinians do ...

    (3) ... The problem with the Palestinian question is that it doesn't have an answer ...

    (1) It is difficult , but we cannot stop trying to solve it .

    (2) If this really happens , we need to do a more balanced distribution of help . But in my view , the representatives of the countries are like bureaucrats , many , if not most , are not doing anything . I guess many get an UN post as a gift , not by merit . UN itself needs to change .

    (3) I don't agree .

    Leave a comment:


  • Happyman
    replied
    There is a sort of answer to the Palestinian question. Voluntary diaspora. Drain the wound.
    A friend of mine from Nepal went to medical school in Germany. As best I can recall, the government paid all his bills. Catch is, he has to work for the German medical system for a certain number of years, or pay the money back.

    Get a coalition of the willing together and give land to Palestinians in new sponsor states:
    Take a group of people totaling 100 or so (family based where possible), offer them x acres of land to come and live in a certain community in your country.
    Provide them with government support for x amount of time while they adapt to their new environment and receive language/vocational training.
    Put them on the citizenship track.

    Catches are: 60% of the original community must remain living on said land for the next 20 years in order to achieve full ownership. Less than 60% means -1 year.
    80% of the group must reside in the host country for 80% of the year, or they lose one year of time against ownership of the land.
    Should any one person spend more than 6 months out of the country at a time, he loses his personal land, is no longer welcome in host country.
    Should any member of the group be found to be participating in "terrorist acts" in the host country, the whole group will be deported.
    Should deportation occur, ownership of the land reverts to the government.

    The issue started with a question of land ownership, let's finish it with one. You can have seedling communities of Palestinians planted all over the mid-west.

    Do these seem like harsh conditions to you? I would accept the same conditions to be imposed upon me here, in Indonesia, were the land and community right. (i would also try to re-negotiate this contract, as it's a bit of a beast )
    Last edited by Happyman; 02-11-14, 01:01.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanInAceh
    replied
    Originally posted by marcus View Post
    I do not agree . There are almost 13 million people there and millions Palestinians having a miserable life .
    This may be true, but there are billions more everywhere suffering in terrible conditions. The Palestinian question is difficult and receives significantly more attention than other issues in the developing world. A big part of this is politics. I would much prefer to spend time and resources on improving the lives of people we can actually help rather than beat the dead horse of correcting the sins of colonial Israel. It happened, it's a reality. The problem is intractable, and the only real solution is for the two sides to learn to live with one another. Fat chance of that happening, so sad.

    But there are other people in the world struggling in far worse conditions who don't get even a thousandth of the attention and resources that the Palestinians do. Some of these problems have actual, workable solutions. The problem with the Palestinian question is that it doesn't have an answer. How should we prioritize this?

    Leave a comment:


  • marcus
    replied
    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    ... The world would be better off ignoring the whole issue than getting involved in such an intractable problem.
    Originally posted by Michael2014 View Post
    Dan, I must admit you speak a lot of sense!!

    I do not agree . There are almost 13 million people there and millions Palestinians having a miserable life .

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael2014
    replied
    Dan, I must admit you speak a lot of sense!!

    Leave a comment:


  • DanInAceh
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael2014 View Post
    It is is immaterial will not happen until Abbas stops bleating about Israel and gets down to real peace negotiations & stops inciting the Arabs on the West Bank. Hamas is another matter!!
    Oh, it's merely Abbas. Let's be real here: neither side appears to truly desire a peaceful solution. The Israelis are buying time to slowly push out the Arabs, the Arabs are apologists for terrorism. The world would be better off ignoring the whole issue than getting involved in such an intractable problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael2014
    replied
    Originally posted by yardmaster View Post
    won't hear too much in US news about it, except Al Jazeera network.
    Israel is still the favored son in the US. Although patience is growing thin
    It is is immaterial will not happen until Abbas stops bleating about Israel and gets down to real peace negotiations & stops inciting the Arabs on the West Bank. Hamas is another matter!!

    Leave a comment:


  • yardmaster
    replied
    won't hear too much in US news about it, except Al Jazeera network.
    Israel is still the favored son in the US. Although patience is growing thin

    Leave a comment:

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