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Chapter Six - In Which Malala Wins The Nobel Peace Prize

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  • #16
    Mr b

    I can understand all that. By liberal, I was meaning based upon the principles of liberalism.

    If you don't mind, I am going to put an extract here from an Australian journalist, that has been rushing around my head all day. You may or may not want to comment.


    As atheist Sam Harris told the sulking actor Ben Affleck on Real Time with Bill Maher last week, the charge of Islamophobia hurled at people who denounce the poor "treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers and public intellectuals in the Muslim world" has seen liberals fail the very principles they espouse.
    As Maher himself continuously points out, "freedom of speech, to practice any religion you want without fear of violence, to leave a religion, equality for women, for minorities including homosexuals, these are liberal principles liberals applaud but, then when you say, in the Muslim world, this is what's lacking, then they get upset".
    [COLOR=#000000]
    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/islamo...#ixzz3FwtDg3u3
    [/COLOR]

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    • #17
      Originally posted by johntap View Post
      As atheist Sam Harris told the sulking actor Ben Affleck on Real Time with Bill Maher last week, the charge of Islamophobia hurled at people who denounce the poor "treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers and public intellectuals in the Muslim world" has seen liberals fail the very principles they espouse.
      As Maher himself continuously points out, "freedom of speech, to practice any religion you want without fear of violence, to leave a religion, equality for women, for minorities including homosexuals, these are liberal principles liberals applaud but, then when you say, in the Muslim world, this is what's lacking, then they get upset".
      The trouble with liberals is that they're so interested in being inclusive that they cannot realize that not all ideas nor peoples are fully compatible. They believe so firmly in a free society that they ignore the benefits of order, they end up with a chaotic society.

      Let me be very clear about something: Islam is not a particularly liberal religion. In fact, it may be the exact opposite. As I often like to point out, Islam means "submission." It is an orthoprax faith; there are correct, Islamic ways to do most everything. To consider this, let's look at some liberal Muslims, because their frank apostasy is easy to demonstrate.

      http://queermuslimproject.tumblr.com/

      A blog with poor, confused gay Muslims. I say that they are confused because they desperately wish to be included in a faith which cannot include them. It may, at best, tolerate their presence as closeted, sexless individuals. Let's examine a photo to see the problem in a nutshell:

      http://queermuslimproject.tumblr.com/image/86492900337

      "El-Tawhid Juma Circle is a queer affirming space in which prayers are conducted for a mixed gender congregation. LGBTQ members take turns leading the Friday prayer. "

      And so we see even greater problems: they reject the Sunnah for their own, private Islam. This is an issue because Islam is decidedly not a private religion of private interpretation, but a religion that declares itself, no pun intended, "the straight path." There isn't a "personal relationship" with Allah, as Christians are so wont to embrace: mankind's relationship with the creator is that of master and slave.

      And we see all manner of fitna here. A man with earrings and make up on sitting dutifully and prayerfully in a mixed congregation. The congregation is mixed because it appeals to their sentiment of equality, that men and women are equal before God. That much is true: man and woman ARE spiritual equals. But they do NOT pray in mixed congregations and there is abundant evidence to the contrary. Similarly, women can lead women in prayer, but they cannot lead men in prayer. Islam is a faith that advocates segregation of the sexes. It does NOT advocate equality in a sense understood by Westerners.

      And what would be the most likely fate of these people in a society dominated by Islam? They'd most likely be executed, perhaps just lashed. They would be outcasts, and they certainly couldn't dress like a bunch of insufferable hipsters. Their shallow, personal understanding of Islam would be rejected by Muslims, as these people are already rejected by us even here. They cling to this because, perhaps, they believe that Islam can be "reformed." Semitic religion, all of it, is hostile to them. Why do they persist with a God who quite literally hates their actions? They're stubborn, they like negative attention, I dunno... the point is that these people are delusional. They see the "progress" that has been made with Christianity and wish to replicate that "success" with Islam. In that case too we see open rejection of homosexuality, and yet still they insist that God is this divine pushover that overlooks all faults and succumbs to all human desires.

      They're blinkered idiots.

      From the ahadith:

      "If you find people doing as Lut's (Lot's) people did(sodomy), kill the one who did it and also the one who allowed it to be done."

      From the Qur'an itself:

      Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) says, "Do you approach males among the worlds? And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."

      Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) says, "And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women." Rather, you are a transgressing people. But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure." So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who remained [with the evildoers]. And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals."
      Last edited by DanInAceh; 13-10-14, 05:08.

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      • #18
        Is the Nobel for Peace ever NOT politically correct? Even the others are heavily influenced by politics, from the very beginning. Look at winners of the Nobel for Medicine and Physiology: von Behring, Koch, Ehrlich, but not this guy who worked with them and discovered in one lifetime what Europeans couldn't figure out in half a millennium: plague is spread by fleas, not by the rats themselves.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitasato_Shibasaburō

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
          And what would be the most likely fate of these people in a society dominated by Islam? They'd most likely be executed, perhaps just lashed. They would be outcasts, and they certainly couldn't dress like a bunch of insufferable hipsters. Their shallow, personal understanding of Islam would be rejected by Muslims, as these people are already rejected by us even here. They cling to this because, perhaps, they believe that Islam can be "reformed." Semitic religion, all of it, is hostile to them. Why do they persist with a God who quite literally hates their actions? They're stubborn, they like negative attention, I dunno... the point is that these people are delusional. They see the "progress" that has been made with Christianity and wish to replicate that "success" with Islam. In that case too we see open rejection of homosexuality, and yet still they insist that God is this divine pushover that overlooks all faults and succumbs to all human desires.

          They're blinkered idiots.
          It appears that Pakistan is full of "blinkered idiots".

          "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Pakistan is not the kind of place that most people would associate with gay liberation. But some say the country is a great place to be gay - even describing the port city of Karachi as "a gay man's paradise".[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Underground parties, group sex at shrines and "marriages of convenience" to members of the opposite sex are just some of the surprises that gay Pakistan has to offer. Under its veneer of strict social conformity, the country is bustling with same-sex activity"
          http://www.bbc.com/news/23811826

          I'm guessing that if Pakistani lesbians were meeting and cavorting on such a scale they would be heavily punished. Such are the advantages of being male in an unequal society.

          Edit: An interesting little tit bit

          "[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#666666][FONT=Arial]Pakistanis lead the world in Google searches for the terms “shemale sex.”
          [/FONT][/COLOR]http://english.alarabiya.net/en/life-style/art-and-culture/2014/08/24/Pakistan-s-homosexual-scene-Is-the-debate-being-silenced-.html
          Last edited by lantern; 13-10-14, 11:18.
          "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lantern View Post
            It appears that Pakistan is full of "blinkered idiots".

            "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Pakistan is not the kind of place that most people would associate with gay liberation. But some say the country is a great place to be gay - even describing the port city of Karachi as "a gay man's paradise".[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Underground parties, group sex at shrines and "marriages of convenience" to members of the opposite sex are just some of the surprises that gay Pakistan has to offer. Under its veneer of strict social conformity, the country is bustling with same-sex activity"

            I'm guessing that if Pakistani lesbians were meeting and cavorting on such a scale they would be heavily punished. Such are the advantages of being male in an unequal society. [/FONT][/COLOR]
            I doubt it. Anal sex is the primary concern with homosexuality, not homosexuality itself, which is why I stated that they could be Muslim if they were largely sexless individuals. Same sex relations are, of course, heavily frowned upon. However, they are far more likely to execute gay men than lesbians.

            Note that the sexual orientation is still completely closeted; that the existence of such a life in Karachi is in opposition with the values of the country and especially the surrounding area. They do not OPENLY do these things, and it's made clear in the article that the religion is opposed to it.

            "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Most Pakistanis view homosexuality as sinful. The vast majority of clerics interpret the Qoranic story of Lot as a clear indication that God condemns homosexual men. Some scholars go even further and recommend Sharia-based punishment for "men who have sex with men"."

            And what is the shari'a-informed punishment for men who have sex with men? You get one guess. It's interesting to note that this article glosses over that little factoid, I wonder why? If this blogger for the BBC is wishing to reinvent Pakistan as a land where gayness is welcomed, he should focus on men put to death there and open, out gay men.

            [/FONT][/COLOR]Also, about the transgender searches, Muslims can wrap their minds around transgender better than they can homosexuality. This is why you can openly see, to some degree, effeminate men forced into a third sex. To their minds, this is potentially acceptable because it was not directly prohibited.

            Of course, Pakistan has so many porn searches because its people are sexually repressed to a degree. That's no surprise at all.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
              I doubt it. Anal sex is the primary concern with homosexuality, not homosexuality itself, which is why I stated that they could be Muslim if they were largely sexless individuals. Same sex relations are, of course, heavily frowned upon. However, they are far more likely to execute gay men than lesbians.

              Note that the sexual orientation is still completely closeted; that the existence of such a life in Karachi is in opposition with the values of the country and especially the surrounding area. They do not OPENLY do these things, and it's made clear in the article that the religion is opposed to it.

              "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Arial]Most Pakistanis view homosexuality as sinful. The vast majority of clerics interpret the Qoranic story of Lot as a clear indication that God condemns homosexual men. Some scholars go even further and recommend Sharia-based punishment for "men who have sex with men"."

              And what is the shari'a-informed punishment for men who have sex with men? You get one guess. It's interesting to note that this article glosses over that little factoid, I wonder why? If this blogger for the BBC is wishing to reinvent Pakistan as a land where gayness is welcomed, he should focus on men put to death there and open, out gay men.

              [/FONT][/COLOR]Also, about the transgender searches, Muslims can wrap their minds around transgender better than they can homosexuality. This is why you can openly see, to some degree, effeminate men forced into a third sex. To their minds, this is potentially acceptable because it was not directly prohibited.

              Of course, Pakistan has so many porn searches because its people are sexually repressed to a degree. That's no surprise at all.
              One of my comment on my first month in Indonesia: "gosh! are they all gay? they all walk around holding hand, arm around the shoulder and with a lot of promiscuity.
              My brother who have know a lot of Moroccan told me about a Moroccan who find it more easy to live in Morocco: Yeah, it's forbidden to be gay there, but it's very easy to not been recognize, it's how everyone act! While here in Montreal, I'm spotted as gay at the first glance!
              La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
                One of my comment on my first month in Indonesia: "gosh! are they all gay? they all walk around holding hand, arm around the shoulder and with a lot of promiscuity.
                My brother who have know a lot of Moroccan told me about a Moroccan who find it more easy to live in Morocco: Yeah, it's forbidden to be gay there, but it's very easy to not been recognize, it's how everyone act! While here in Montreal, I'm spotted as gay at the first glance!
                Wait, what? You're gay? Or you just look like a gay dude?

                Muslim societies typically have two classes of gay men, those who are closeted and those who dress as women and become prostitutes. The latter group isn't necessarily trans, I might add, but they're generally outcasts.

                Holding hands and what not is generally not considered gay, and they may even go further provided it's not butt sex, which they deem to be "full on gay."

                I can't speak to the wisdom of such a system for designating who is gay, but if you actually ask most "gay" men in Muslim societies they'll tell you this:

                "I'm not gay, this is a phase."

                And they truly do believe that.

                edit: it should be noted that this is hardly representative of greater acceptance. it is, in fact, the polar opposite.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                  Wait, what? You're gay? Or you just look like a gay dude?

                  Muslim societies typically have two classes of gay men, those who are closeted and those who dress as women and become prostitutes. The latter group isn't necessarily trans, I might add, but they're generally outcasts.

                  Holding hands and what not is generally not considered gay, and they may even go further provided it's not butt sex, which they deem to be "full on gay."

                  I can't speak to the wisdom of such a system for designating who is gay, but if you actually ask most "gay" men in Muslim societies they'll tell you this:

                  "I'm not gay, this is a phase."

                  And they truly do believe that.

                  edit: it should be noted that this is hardly representative of greater acceptance. it is, in fact, the polar opposite.
                  Nope, that was what plus or less what the guy said.
                  La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by johntap View Post
                    Mr b

                    I can understand all that. By liberal, I was meaning based upon the principles of liberalism.

                    If you don't mind, I am going to put an extract here from an Australian journalist, that has been rushing around my head all day. You may or may not want to comment.


                    As atheist Sam Harris told the sulking actor Ben Affleck on Real Time with Bill Maher last week, the charge of Islamophobia hurled at people who denounce the poor "treatment of women, homosexuals, free thinkers and public intellectuals in the Muslim world" has seen liberals fail the very principles they espouse.
                    As Maher himself continuously points out, "freedom of speech, to practice any religion you want without fear of violence, to leave a religion, equality for women, for minorities including homosexuals, these are liberal principles liberals applaud but, then when you say, in the Muslim world, this is what's lacking, then they get upset".
                    [COLOR=#000000]
                    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/islamo...#ixzz3FwtDg3u3
                    [/COLOR]
                    John, could you work on just expressing whatever's on your otak(soft landing) in plain words, please? Mebbe practice in front of a mirror or something? I'd have an easier time following a one-legged kangaroo.


                    If someone believes in equal educational opportunities for boys and girls, men and women, that makes them "liberal" in their values, right? And since some Muslim practices and beliefs seem at loggerheads with liberal values, that makes "liberal" Muslims like me, as well as non-Muslim liberals who defend non-liberal Muslims, hypocrites? Have I got it right now?
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Listen Hopalong, you better ask Sam Harris about that.

                      I don't think you are hypocritical at all; there are tons of your thoughts here to support this. Hyperactive maybe.

                      ETA: if you want a label, I would call you a liberal muslim who speaks out but at the same time fears being called an apologist (Your word).
                      Last edited by johntap; 13-10-14, 22:43.

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                      • #26
                        Liberalism versus a religion obsessed with the mechanics of sex. Seemingly not a hard choice for some Catholics and Muslims.

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                        • #27
                          "Hard choice", eh? Say no more! A wink is as good as a nudge to a blind man!
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                          The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by johntap View Post

                            I don't think you are hypocritical at all; there are tons of your thoughts here to support this. Hyperactive maybe.
                            I could probably cop to "hyperbolic" occasionally, as well. Ah well, better too fast than too slow, I suppose.
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                            The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Can I suggest you go watch an episode of Marsha and the Bear?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by johntap View Post
                                Can I suggest you go watch an episode of Marsha and the Bear?
                                Why, is it a kind of visual form of adderall or rytalin? "Teletubbies" and "Thomas, the Friendly Tank Engine" have worked well in the past.

                                I thought it was "Masha", by the way ...
                                [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                                The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                                Comment

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