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  • Jokowi

    He needs his own thread.

    Plus i thought this was an interesting read

    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]"President-elect Joko Widodo has called on local Muslim leaders to do more to stop the spread of radical Islamic teaching in Indonesia, as politicians warn of a rising tide of support in the country for the extremist group Islamic State"[/FONT][/COLOR]
    http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/...islamic-state/

    Im far from an expert but from his track record and everything i read I like this man, he could be the best thing thats ever happened to Indonesia or at least do the best job possible.

  • #2
    Could be good but he will need some of the red and white coalition to stop licking their wounds and join in his attempt at making Indonesia a better place. Presently, there are a lot of law makers that want to oppose all he tries to do for spite. Unfortunately, Indonesian House Members are not too well known for doing anything to progress the nation into the future.
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah thats the hard part..oh well at least its a start.

      Comment


      • #4
        He will need to become a great communicator and take his plans directly to the people. He will need to work hard on his speech delivery because his slow choppy method he has now just won't cut it and he has to deliver his own messages. Yes, it is a start but will anyone let him finish anything?
        [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

        Comment


        • #5
          Following a plan is not that hard, the main trouble for government made out of coalition is to have a plan. The many different leader who decide to join in a coalition still have their own view of "what and how it should be" making everyone pulling the blanket on his side.

          I have already told it, gov made of coalition are not strong gov. I really hope they will agree to ONE plan and support it to it's achievement.
          La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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          • #6
            Been waiting for many many years for Indonesia to have a leader who actually works for the people and not just themselves or their party.

            Would be such a shame for the Indonesian people if Jokowi was stonewalled at every opportunity by the merah putih coalition just out of pure spite

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            • #7
              Could someone clarify how bills get their start in parliament? For example, can Jokowi send one direclty from the Office of the President? If so, how do people know that it was actually his own initiative and not simply his name attached to something that Yusuf Kalla or some other tokoh pretending to be an "ally" wants?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mick mentawai View Post
                He needs his own thread.

                Plus i thought this was an interesting read

                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]"President-elect Joko Widodo has called on local Muslim leaders to do more to stop the spread of radical Islamic teaching in Indonesia, as politicians warn of a rising tide of support in the country for the extremist group Islamic State"[/FONT][/COLOR]
                http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/...islamic-state/

                Im far from an expert but from his track record and everything i read I like this man, he could be the best thing thats ever happened to Indonesia or at least do the best job possible.
                From the article, "The government has formally banned the IS movement in Indonesia, and police have made a number of arrests related to the issue. But Indonesia cannot solely depend on government officials and security officers to curb the spread of the IS movement in Indonesia, Melani said.
                Whether they commonly preach at Islamic study groups or in other community groups, Muslim preachers can play a significant role in countering the growth of ISIS in Indonesia,” Melani said at an event in Jakarta on Sunday, referring to the Islamic State by its previous name.

                “We must support the government’s every step to fight the development of ISIS cells in Indonesia. We must protect the diversity of our nation, including diversity of ethnicity, religion, race and beliefs.

                Melani suggested that Muslim clerics do more to mainstream the principles of tolerance in their sermons.

                “For example, at every Islamic gathering that they hold, they should emphasize the need for us to adopt a more pluralist attitude,” she said."

                And therein lies the problem. Actually, I see two problems here.

                1.) Reliance on study groups and khutbahs to espouse the government's view and...
                2.) A belief that Islam is a religion of pluralism and tolerance.

                The latter is definitively wrong. I don't care how liberally one interprets the deen, it is not a religion that is at home with a plurality of belief. It can tolerate branches of like-minded belief, but only in the context of a dominant Islam.

                The former is a little more complex. The Islamic State is seen as such a big threat not just because their troops won against numerically and technologically superior foes; they are a big threat because they have an excellent propaganda machine. They are reaching young people through social media more than they are through traditional means like "clerics." They take advantage of the situation to present a view that Islam is under attack and that Muslims are obligated to rally around the banner of the Caliph. They spread their propaganda through social media and through forums, as mujahid groups have done for the past two decades. Muslims who are radicalized through study groups, a valid phenomenon, generally come to it through the other means first. Arresting people has some limited value, but ultimately they are not doing enough.

                If they are going to use religion as their shield, they need to produce Islamic arguments against IS that are NOT informed by Indonesian nationalism and its attending propaganda, Pancasila. This means trying Muslims under shari'a. Trying them under the secular law of Indonesia has limited value as it continues to validate their belief that Muslim states are unduly influenced by foreign concepts. And yes, in the minds of these people (and I'd argue most Muslims in Indonesia), Indonesia is a Muslim polity.

                Islamic arguments against IS include the fact that the caliph was not elected (and thus not valid), their fighters have slain civilians (a violation of Islam's rules of engagement; the penalty for which is death) and their acquisition of loot without recompense for the locals. However, framing this as "they're intolerant and against secular governance" is not a very convincing Islamic argument.

                Comment


                • #9
                  A word about Islamic fundamentalists and prison: it doesn't work. Arresting them is fine, but they end up preaching in prison instead of on the outside. In prison they have an even more receptive audience, they radicalize their cellmates and the attending ideology has not at all been defeated.

                  What works, and Mr. Jokowi if you're reading I hope you take this to heart, is exposing the hypocrisy of hyperreligious movements like IS. They cannot eat their own dog food. They present a view of the Islamic State that is the promised dream of khilafa, but the reality on the ground is far different than the propaganda. Exposing that can be effective. They are the sort of puritans that die out when people figure out that they actually preferred listening to music and not having to cover up phallic vegetables. It's draconian, and it's the sort of society that collapses on itself. If they can spin government action as being "against Islam," they persist and they win. It's as simple as that.

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                  • #10
                    Many people are Indonesians first and Muslims second. If Indonesians are all devout Muslims per Dan's strict standard, then Jokowi wouldn't have won the election. Indonesia has dealt with Islamic separatism and extremism since the birth of the republic, and the republic has prevailed so far, even in Aceh. Indonesia has experience fighting and defeating the likes of ISIS even before the parents of these animals were a twinkle in their grandparents' eyes, long before the word 'terrorism' was invented.

                    While the average American has a natural suspicion toward government, the average Indonesian by default pins his hope on a benevolent all-powerful ruler. Read about the legend of Ratu Adil. When you look at an Indonesia through an uninformed American's eye, you're bound to produce inaccurate assessments.

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                    • #11
                      ISIL will have a following in Indonesia, in precisely the same way it has a following in the UK, France, Australia, pretty much everywhere in the world in fact with the exception perhaps of Japan and parts of Latin America. But I predict Indonesia will handle the challenge a hell of a lot better than many other societies, this is for two reasons.

                      First, the Indonesian state has a rather more robust method of dealing with internal dissent than in the west and has proved in the past and is proving still today that when challenged by radicals it smashes back with shocking violence. I have no doubt ISIL will gain ground in the coming years but it will come to a point when they push it too far and they'll find they are meeting their 72 virgins in pretty short order, and by the dozen. Alas Jokowi, who comes across as a nice man but is rather too imbued with western liberal ideas, might not be the man with the backbone to take the necessary action when the ech-ech hits the kipas angin.

                      Second, Indonesians are no longer the easily deluded kampung dwellers of their parents' and grandparents' generation, overwhelmingly they will not fall for the lure of ISIL. There's no reason too, if you're in Iraq or Syria and everything is hellish then signing up with the toughest hombres in the block has an attraction. Ditto for parts of Africa. If on the other hand you're a child of Muslim immigrants or one of the uber-Muslim converts I refer to elsewhere in the UK or France or somewhere else in the west and you are bored with the bland valueless and comfortable society you see around you then a bit of jihadi tourism has an appeal, a bit like the blokes who used to go off on the hippie trail to Nepal back in the 60s and 70s.

                      But if you're an Indonesian and you've just got your new smart phone and have managed to get the first down payment on the new Honda there is a much more attractive life ahead of you (we blase westerners might sneer at this crude consumerism but that's simply hypocrisy). You have a life opening up of the sort that you've seen on the TV sinetron and a way to escape from the life of torpid drudgery of previous generations, what on earth would be the attraction of joining up with a bunch of austere wannabe Arabs for a life of soul-crushingly arid piety and conservatism where you're not even allowed to look at the cute women on Instagram?

                      I feel more secure about the future of Indonesia than I would about many other societies around the world.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gongdangdia View Post
                        ISIL will have a following in Indonesia, in precisely the same way it has a following in the UK, France, Australia, pretty much everywhere in the world in fact with the exception perhaps of Japan and parts of Latin America. But I predict Indonesia will handle the challenge a hell of a lot better than many other societies, this is for two reasons.

                        First, the Indonesian state has a rather more robust method of dealing with internal dissent than in the west and has proved in the past and is proving still today that when challenged by radicals it smashes back with shocking violence. I have no doubt ISIL will gain ground in the coming years but it will come to a point when they push it too far and they'll find they are meeting their 72 virgins in pretty short order, and by the dozen. Alas Jokowi, who comes across as a nice man but is rather too imbued with western liberal ideas, might not be the man with the backbone to take the necessary action when the ech-ech hits the kipas angin.

                        Second, Indonesians are no longer the easily deluded kampung dwellers of their parents' and grandparents' generation, overwhelmingly they will not fall for the lure of ISIL. There's no reason too, if you're in Iraq or Syria and everything is hellish then signing up with the toughest hombres in the block has an attraction. Ditto for parts of Africa. If on the other hand you're a child of Muslim immigrants or one of the uber-Muslim converts I refer to elsewhere in the UK or France or somewhere else in the west and you are bored with the bland valueless and comfortable society you see around you then a bit of jihadi tourism has an appeal, a bit like the blokes who used to go off on the hippie trail to Nepal back in the 60s and 70s.

                        But if you're an Indonesian and you've just got your new smart phone and have managed to get the first down payment on the new Honda there is a much more attractive life ahead of you (we blase westerners might sneer at this crude consumerism but that's simply hypocrisy). You have a life opening up of the sort that you've seen on the TV sinetron and a way to escape from the life of torpid drudgery of previous generations, what on earth would be the attraction of joining up with a bunch of austere wannabe Arabs for a life of soul-crushingly arid piety and conservatism where you're not even allowed to look at the cute women on Instagram?

                        I feel more secure about the future of Indonesia than I would about many other societies around the world.
                        I'm plus or less alright with your analyse except with your last paragraph.
                        Yes, the middle class (not their kid which is another subject) as you describe as having a down payment on a honda will not want go through the war way... it's not good for the business.
                        But the middle class is only a little part of the population. And all kind of people (generality) describe from other country can be found in Indo.

                        I just up Indoneisan would be bright enough for look into their cultural history and into their own version of Muslim faith which is not really approve by the arab community (divergent from the "original" faith) for find out radical against diversity don't make sense at all in Indonesia.

                        Earlier I said government made of coalition are never strong government... but it still have it's positive side if you can play along with it. I agree Jokowi don't seem to be the man for deal with such situation where ISIS would start growing in Indo. But he can still let someone else from it's coalition dealing with that... anyway, it's way more the police/army who will have to deal with that than the president himself.
                        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gongdangdia View Post
                          First, the Indonesian state has a rather more robust method of dealing with internal dissent than in the west and has proved in the past and is proving still today that when challenged by radicals it smashes back with shocking violence. I have no doubt ISIL will gain ground in the coming years but it will come to a point when they push it too far and they'll find they are meeting their 72 virgins in pretty short order, and by the dozen. Alas Jokowi, who comes across as a nice man but is rather too imbued with western liberal ideas, might not be the man with the backbone to take the necessary action when the ech-ech hits the kipas angin.
                          Indonesia is an incubator for radicals. Certainly Densus 88 kills some fanatics from time to time, but Indonesia is the country with the largest and most receptive audience for Hizb ut-Tahrir. And what is the ideology of Hizb ut-Tahrir? The same ideology at play in the Islamic State, a call for khilafa and the disintegration of the Indonesian state. So popular is Hizb ut-Tahrir that the head of Muhammadiyah speaks at their rallies (which draw hundreds of thousands of people). If Indonesia is tough on radicals, it's certainly doing a piss poor job of recognizing radical threats in the region. al-Qaeda franchises are not the end all be all of Islamic extremism.

                          I would also argue that force has limited value when dealing with Islamic fundamentalists, particularly when the ideology of jihad fisibilillah is widespread in the archipelago.

                          What I can say positively about Indonesia's contribution to the mujahideen is that, at least according to government figures, only about one hundred Indonesian nationals have gone to IS. That's far less than France or the UK. However, I believe part of that may be due to logistics. It's far more challenging for the average Indonesian to be able to afford "jihobbyism," as many Westerners can.

                          I also share your concern with Jokowi. I think he'll neglect to adequately address the issue, and the chickens (or really, mujahideen) will come home to roost.

                          Originally posted by Gongdangdia View Post
                          Second, Indonesians are no longer the easily deluded kampung dwellers of their parents' and grandparents' generation, overwhelmingly they will not fall for the lure of ISIL. There's no reason too, if you're in Iraq or Syria and everything is hellish then signing up with the toughest hombres in the block has an attraction. Ditto for parts of Africa. If on the other hand you're a child of Muslim immigrants or one of the uber-Muslim converts I refer to elsewhere in the UK or France or somewhere else in the west and you are bored with the bland valueless and comfortable society you see around you then a bit of jihadi tourism has an appeal, a bit like the blokes who used to go off on the hippie trail to Nepal back in the 60s and 70s.

                          But if you're an Indonesian and you've just got your new smart phone and have managed to get the first down payment on the new Honda there is a much more attractive life ahead of you (we blase westerners might sneer at this crude consumerism but that's simply hypocrisy). You have a life opening up of the sort that you've seen on the TV sinetron and a way to escape from the life of torpid drudgery of previous generations, what on earth would be the attraction of joining up with a bunch of austere wannabe Arabs for a life of soul-crushingly arid piety and conservatism where you're not even allowed to look at the cute women on Instagram?
                          Plenty of poor, disillusioned Indonesians to go around, far more than the people you describe. The problem isn't really dissatisfaction or satisfaction. Material rewards are not dissuading Western Muslims, as you note, why do you believe it will dissuade Indonesian Muslims? In truth, it won't, I already posted a slick recruitment video featuring Indonesian mujahideen who joined the Islamic State. He implores Indonesian Muslims to reject worldly benefits for jihad fisibilillah (struggle for the sake of Allah).

                          These fanatics offer something that Muslims globally, and ESPECIALLY in Indonesia as the main base of operations for Hizb ut-Tahrir, want. The lure of khilafa is quite strong, and I suspect that many, many more Muslims (even from Indonesia) will join them. Will it be a massive migration? Nah. Most people want stability, but those who do travel will bring back with them further terrorism.

                          I think you did touch on something important about IS, though. They are overly harsh, nobody wants to eat their dogfood. Exposing that, exposing how pathological their pursuit of Islam is can be their undoing. What we must avoid is fueling the fire.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PhilippeD View Post
                            I just up Indoneisan would be bright enough for look into their cultural history and into their own version of Muslim faith which is not really approve by the arab community (divergent from the "original" faith) for find out radical against diversity don't make sense at all in Indonesia.

                            Earlier I said government made of coalition are never strong government... but it still have it's positive side if you can play along with it. I agree Jokowi don't seem to be the man for deal with such situation where ISIS would start growing in Indo. But he can still let someone else from it's coalition dealing with that... anyway, it's way more the police/army who will have to deal with that than the president himself.
                            This is the part that you and most of the other expats get wrong about Islam in the archipelago time and time again, a belief that this region has its own, unique brand of Islam. Often times, this is portrayed as the 'sunny side' of Islam. That's demonstrably wrong, Islam is Islam. It prides itself on being "the straight path" with a "clear revelation." We only need to look at the widespread incidence of female circumcision as an example of how strongly Indonesians adhere to the Shafi'i madhab (a tradition of jurisprudence). For point of reference, they have exactly the same juristic tradition as ... Somalia. There is nothing different about it, from women who wear mukena (again, a Shafi'i requirement) to men being required to perform wudu after touching their wives, Indonesians have a remarkably CONSERVATIVE "form" of Islam (really, juristic interpretation).

                            To frame this as a "foreign" or "Arab" thing is fine, but it's totally wrong. It's an Islam thing, and there's no evidence that Indonesians have a divergent version of the faith. They have the second most conservative madhab (after Hanbali, the preferred madhab of the salafiya), and I mean the entire archipelago... not just Aceh. Until I see some convincing evidence outside of syncretism (found everywhere in the Muslim world), until I see some evidence that their jurists espouse something more liberal, I find it hard to swallow these statements.

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                            • #15
                              As an example of what I'm talking about...

                              http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/archi...ease-practice/

                              "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]Though FGM/C was banned in 2006, two of Indonesia’s Muslim organizations, including the largest and mostly moderate, Nahdlatul Ulama, ultimately condone the practice advising “not to cut too much,” and, as a result, many continue to perform the procedure."

                              Now why on earth would NU, those guardians of moderation and "indigenous Islam," support the foreign concept of female circumcision? Because it's required in their madhab, because that's how Shafi'i jurists have ruled for over 1,000 years. There's nothing about the way that Islam is actually practiced in the archipelago that suggests to me that it has a "different" or "unique" take on Islam. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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