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Indonesias Next Revolution - Malaysian View

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  • martindo
    replied
    Could be. Could be a rule-of-thumb % in every country. But I get the impression from the arrogant blog that this is not good enough -- those x% must also be "logical" which I think means "non-religious". A lot of the people running Indonesia now may be competent as bankers, teachers, retailers, but still not fit the "essential" quality of "non-religious".

    Leave a comment:


  • johntap
    replied
    Taken from quote in M's post above:

    .......Indonesia has a population of 250 million people. Lets say 10% of the population (25 million) get their act together. Meaning they are progressive, they are scientific, modern, logical and want to progress in life. That 10% alone can be the engine that pulls the nation ahead. Imagine if 20% of their population are in this category. That is 50 million people.

    Isn't this already the case now? That 10% are "driving" the country?

    Leave a comment:


  • martindo
    replied
    I think in another 20 years Indonesia is going to get moving ahead very rapidly. Malaysia on the other hand is going to become bonkers.Indonesia has a population of 250 million people. Lets say 10% of the population (25 million) get their act together. Meaning they are progressive, they are scientific, modern, logical and want to progress in life. That 10% alone can be the engine that pulls the nation ahead. Imagine if 20% of their population are in this category. That is 50 million people.


    And the election of Ah Hok or Tjahaja Purnama (what a cun name) and Joko Widodo or Jokowi (another cun name) is evidence enough that the Indonesia people want progress - above racial and religious bull.


    Of course in Indonesia the Chinese make up only 2% of the population or about 5 million Chinese. That is still enough Chinese to move the economy forward. But the Chinese are not a political threat, especially in a democracy. A Chinese can only become a governor of Jakarta or the next Indonesia president if the Indonesians want it to happen.
    I guess the first paragraph is what NoBi calls "[COLOR=#333333]saying Indonesia is ahead of his own country" in post #5. But it's just speculation and bluster. The poster doesn't say how or why Malaysia is "bonkers" nor provide any evidence/examples.

    And if you couple excerpted paragraph #1 with #3, it does seem racist -- like the "forward" % mostly includes Chinese who obviously "get their act together" (a term that was popular in the 1970s, but now mostly refers to [/COLOR]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale).

    Also, why would a commentator in Malaysia even *think* that Indonesians might have an ethnic Chinese president some day? Most of the Chinese I know here would prefer to have a key person with great influence but not so directly in the limelight.

    As for "truly Asia" -- IMO it can be seen not only as a slap against Indonesia (archipelago is not part of the continent) but also Singapore (too modern to seem Asian). Or it might simply be an attempt to make western people realize SE Asia is part of Asia, too.

    BTW, anyone seen any of the promotional Truly Asia ads on TV lately? They now end with a "sadness" note about MH 17 and also include the promotional lie that a country with institutionalized bumiputera racism "is a nation of racial harmony". That's somewhere in the same ballpark as an American saying the election of Obama ended all racism in the US.

    Leave a comment:


  • Niko Z.
    replied
    Originally posted by nobicycle View Post
    Racial (Dayak versus Javanese) and religious violence (Muslims versus christians) erupted.
    I believe the author means Dayak vs Maduranese violence? There hasn't been a conflict between Dayaknese and Javanese.

    Originally posted by nobicycle View Post
    I think in another 20 years Indonesia is going to get moving ahead very rapidly. Malaysia on the other hand is going to become bonkers.
    Indonesia is making steady progress but it is also spending it's natural resources at an alarming rate. It is still unclear what would be the primary source of income once those are mostly spent, and that time is coming. In twenty years time you will also have a major shift in population pyramid as the demographic bulge travels towards retirement age (major cost to economy and impediment to overall development). What is Indonesia particularly good at producing or organizing that could pick up the slack?

    Malaysia on the other hand is a regional transpot hub and makes an order of magnitude more money from tourism than Indonesia due to government's ability to organize complex undertakings. Malaysia has it's share of problems and challenges ahead (e.g. constituionally enshrined discrimination) but it's still a much more dynamic and vibrant economy than Indonesia.

    I am not trying to put Indonesia down, I love the country, but I don't see a nation that will be ready to face complex challenges of restructuring it's economy anytime soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mister Bule
    replied
    Originally posted by Berlarutlarut View Post
    "Without laws, without discipline, without a system to follow there is little difference between men and animals. Humans can become worse than animals." can't disagree with that

    Let me give just a few examples of "civilized" human behavior, with laws, discipline (to an extreme degree, at that, in many of the cases mentioned below) and most definitively with a "system" to follow:


    the Spanish Inquisition (oh yeah)

    westward expansion of the United States and concurrent genocidal policies against the native Americans

    The Third Reich, 1933 - 45, with all of its infamously associated activities

    Stalin-era Soviet Union (ditto)

    South African apartheid (ditto)

    Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge regime (ditto)


    ... "and many, many more" (including what Israel's been up to the past several weeks, with the support of the U.S. and others).

    Still want to say that "laws, discipline and a system" are a sufficient standard to make people "civilized"?

    Following that, Indonesia has had "laws, discipline (to some degree, and depending on one's interpretation of the term) and "a system" since it's inception as a state, so what's the implication of saying Indonesia is "getting close to" the starting line?

    Leave a comment:


  • nobicycle
    replied
    Originally posted by martindo View Post
    The part I excerpted above is a raw insult, probably racist. The writer is basically calling Indonesians "animals" beyond earlier "uncivilized". I have seen similar idiocy in some of the Talk pages of WP, even where Singapore Chinese call Indonesian Chinese "jungle dwellers".

    Posting this level of "opinion" is a kind of disingenuous provocation, like telling someone, "I heard some people said you're an asshole, but that's not my opinion, I'm only repeating gossip." But basically, the person *has* called the listener an asshole, but indirectly, enjoying schadenfreude but lying to him/herself about having no blame.

    Strangely, the blogger seems ignorant (whoops, did he/she look in a mirror yet?) of the fact that Indonesia *did* declare itself secular in its 1945 Constitution. If you don't think so, try registering two marriages at the same time with Catatan Sipil, even if you're a Muslim blessed by KUA.
    On the specific extract - well in 65/66 up to 3 million Indonesians were slaughtered. Animals do not turn on themselves like that. This sort of behaviour is not specific to Indonesia. I believe the blogger was talking in general.
    We know the rule of law does not reign supreme in Indonesia, that corruption is rampant, as in many parts of the world.


    I went back to reread the post but it seems to have been removed. In my original reading did not detect any negativity towards Indonesia. Quite the contrary. He was saying Indonesia is ahead of his own country on many fronts.

    Well done in turning a compliment into a reason to be grumpy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Berlarutlarut
    replied
    "Without laws, without discipline, without a system to follow there is little difference between men and animals. Humans can become worse than animals." can't disagree with that

    Leave a comment:


  • Abook looty
    replied
    Originally posted by martindo View Post
    The part I excerpted above is a raw insult, probably racist. The writer is basically calling Indonesians "animals" beyond earlier "uncivilized". I have seen similar idiocy in some of the Talk pages of WP, even where Singapore Chinese call Indonesian Chinese "jungle dwellers".

    Posting this level of "opinion" is a kind of disingenuous provocation, like telling someone, "I heard some people said you're an asshole, but that's not my opinion, I'm only repeating gossip." But basically, the person *has* called the listener an asshole, but indirectly, enjoying schadenfreude but lying to him/herself about having no blame.

    Strangely, the blogger seems ignorant (whoops, did he/she look in a mirror yet?) of the fact that Indonesia *did* declare itself secular in its 1945 Constitution. If you don't think so, try registering two marriages at the same time with Catatan Sipil, even if you're a Muslim blessed by KUA.
    What you refer is quite common in Malaysia, Is like saying we are truly Asia not racist but racial/religious segregation exists. However,apart from that point, having someone there wrote such thing in a blog, Isnt that suppose to be forbidden under UMNO/Malaysian policy ? I personally believe, no matter how much the second or third class race trying to progress in malaysia, They wont be able to do that, they just cant do that....

    Leave a comment:


  • martindo
    replied
    Originally posted by nobicycle View Post
    From one of the most popular Malaysian blogs:

    Most importantly the society must become civilised. The society itself must realise the importance of having good laws and then sticking to the law. Without laws, without discipline, without a system to follow there is little difference between men and animals. Humans can become worse than animals. That is the starting line. Indonesia is getting closer to this starting line.
    The part I excerpted above is a raw insult, probably racist. The writer is basically calling Indonesians "animals" beyond earlier "uncivilized". I have seen similar idiocy in some of the Talk pages of WP, even where Singapore Chinese call Indonesian Chinese "jungle dwellers".

    Posting this level of "opinion" is a kind of disingenuous provocation, like telling someone, "I heard some people said you're an asshole, but that's not my opinion, I'm only repeating gossip." But basically, the person *has* called the listener an asshole, but indirectly, enjoying schadenfreude but lying to him/herself about having no blame.

    Strangely, the blogger seems ignorant (whoops, did he/she look in a mirror yet?) of the fact that Indonesia *did* declare itself secular in its 1945 Constitution. If you don't think so, try registering two marriages at the same time with Catatan Sipil, even if you're a Muslim blessed by KUA.
    Last edited by martindo; 07-08-14, 11:57.

    Leave a comment:


  • nobicycle
    started a topic Indonesias Next Revolution - Malaysian View

    Indonesias Next Revolution - Malaysian View

    From one of the most popular Malaysian blogs:

    "Indonesians are getting totally fed up. They tried Megawati, Gus Dur, Bambang Yudhyono and not much changed. The country became worse off than under Suharto. Indonesia lost Timor Timor. Racial (Dayak versus Javanese) and religious violence (Muslims versus christians) erupted.Worst of all the corruption did not go down as much. Then came along Joko Widodo or Jokowi who is now the president and Basuki Tjahaja Purnama or Ah Hok - an ethnic Chinese who is the newest elected governor of Jakarta.If both Jokowi and Ah Hok can cut the corruption and get the economy moving, they would have achieved great things for Indonesia.

    Indonesia needs to get to the starting line. They are not yet at the starting line. Malaysia is falling back from the starting line.Starting line means they must realise that the government must deliver, you must not waste resources, no cronyism and corruption. The people, the government and their political system must internalise this.

    Most importantly the society must become civilised. The society itself must realise the importance of having good laws and then sticking to the law. Without laws, without discipline, without a system to follow there is little difference between men and animals. Humans can become worse than animals. That is the starting line. Indonesia is getting closer to this starting line.

    An important step that Indonesia has taken is to declare itself a secular state. This means no religion in the public sphere.

    I think in another 20 years Indonesia is going to get moving ahead very rapidly. Malaysia on the other hand is going to become bonkers.Indonesia has a population of 250 million people. Lets say 10% of the population (25 million) get their act together. Meaning they are progressive, they are scientific, modern, logical and want to progress in life. That 10% alone can be the engine that pulls the nation ahead. Imagine if 20% of their population are in this category. That is 50 million people.

    And the election of Ah Hok or Tjahaja Purnama (what a cun name) and Joko Widodo or Jokowi (another cun name) is evidence enough that the Indonesia people want progress - above racial and religious bull.

    Of course in Indonesia the Chinese make up only 2% of the population or about 5 million Chinese. That is still enough Chinese to move the economy forward. But the Chinese are not a political threat, especially in a democracy. A Chinese can only become a governor of Jakarta or the next Indonesia president if the Indonesians want it to happen.

    The Indonesians will want that to happen if they are convinced (or really hope) that Ah Hok will look after their rights and not give the country away to the Chinese and others. So Ah Hok or Tjahaja Purnama has to really prove himself. I hope he will live up to the expectations of the Indonesian people. This is a big test for Ah Hok.The elevation of Ah Hok and Jokowi holds great promise for Indonesia. The ascent of Ah Hok also carries a fantastic example for Chinese in Malaysia as well. If Ah Hok can do it in Indonesia, so can you in Malaysia.

    http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.n...evolution.html


    Having lived in both countries, I agree with the analysis of Indonesia moving ahead and Malaysia falling back. The biggest issue for Indonesia that remains:

    "Secular Indonesia has great future, there little religious politics, little islamization in school system, No NEP for malay race(many races in Indonesia), even democracy process more mature than us, every 1 or 2 term , change of ruling party/ presidents with no fuss.Indonesia is rich in resources, what it need is up-skilling of human resources."

    http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.c...indonesia.html

    Up-skilling of human resources???I've not arrived at the end of this thread :

    http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/44578-New-Ministry-of-Education-regulations-Indonesian-culture-Pancasila-religion-etc

    but the first page says the Indonesian education department just dropped English and Science as core subjects???? Is that true, or a joke?
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