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The 2014 elections taught me that Indonesia truly is a Pancasila country

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  • The 2014 elections taught me that Indonesia truly is a Pancasila country

    Title says it all. Regardless of how people responded to the oft-quoted Pew survey a couple years ago, people do not vote for "Sharia Law" in Indonesia in elections that actually count. During the legislative elections, parties with a Pancasila ideology won over 75% of the seats. Sharia-ideology parties won < 25%; not even enough to place a candidate in the presidential election.

    In the presidential election, Prabowo courted all of the major Islamic organizations... and lost. Even the "black campaign" of trying to paint Jokowi as a closet Chinese Christian was not enough to sway the vote. I am convinced that people responded to surveys by a foreign NGO by saying what they thought "good Muslims" should say, but then voted their conscience in the actual election. Multiconfessionalism is the dominant ideology in Indonesia. Thank God this is not "Acehnesia".
    This space is available for rent.

  • #2
    eh i believe you misinteprated something...

    you do mean "Indonesia is a Democratic country"?...
    since not even a single "hard-core" Moeslem Clerics in Indonesia had tought that Pancasila is against the code of Sharia...
    what most of them think is that Democracy cant stand beside Sharia... their reason is quite logical actually...
    Democracy is.... "from the people, by the people, for the people"...
    while Sharia is... "From Allah, by Sharia, for the people"...
    10 step to eternity...

    Comment


    • #3
      we need to see the impact of this very tight-race presidential election on Indonesian people going forward. I think if elected President can show his ability to get things done, people will be happy and forgetting their differences in election. Otherwise, the competition between both camps will still continue, which is not good for Indonesia development.

      Comment


      • #4
        eric insists that shari'a and Pancasila are opposed. This is incorrect. My stance has always been that Pancasila has been partially informed by our shari'a, that Indonesia has some enshrined elements of our shari'a.

        Support whatever ideology you like, eric, if you choose to support the state ideology of a nation that killed a lot of its own people that's your business. Go ahead and be a cheerleader for it.

        However, Prabowo was decidedly not a shari'a compliant candidate, but I suppose entered into an unholy alliance with some of the Muslim groups (and, interestingly, with GAM via Partai Aceh). You will continue to see the growth of shari'a in Indonesia, because that is the general direction of the entire Muslim world (which, yes, Indonesia is deeply a part of). Do note that only a few months back, Jokowi was expected to win by a landslide. His popularity, soon to go the way of the "wi"dodo, carried him through.

        Personally, I am quite pleased that Indonesia elected him to be president. Couldn't be happier. Prabowo would have set back Aceh independence decades, Jokowi presents an opportunity for jihad now as he will be ineffective. I am eagerly encouraging the Acehnese to take up arms now and push the issue of a referendum in the hopes that he is every bit as inept and ineffectual as he truly appears to be. Then we can truly have "Acehnesia," a silly thing to say as Aceh has no colonial designs on anyone else unlike their Javanese neighbors, and you can be rid of the "crazy" Muslims and all will be well. Someone such as yourself should be a staunch supporter of Aceh's independence and move towards our shari'a (or really, to Acehnese custom which is informed by shari'a) as it means that you'll be rid of them once and for all. Because everybody knows that it's just Aceh and not at all anywhere else.

        Oh dear. I guess we'll revisit this topic in a few years.
        Last edited by DanInAceh; 26-07-14, 04:57.

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        • #5
          There's also this article to consider, from an actual source of journalism and not the Post or Globe...

          http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...93311138076926

          "
          Those counts showed four Islamic parties together took almost 30% of the vote, up from their 24% combined share in 2009. Many pollsters had predicted a further decline for the nation's handful of Islamic parties, whose share of the vote slid noticeably in 2009 elections.
          Their improved results present a special challenge for mainstream parties, including that of popular Jakarta Gov. Joko Widodo, in the House of Representatives and in coming presidential elections. None of the large parties appeared to receive enough votes to field a candidate on their own for the nation's top job under electoral rules. To run a presidential candidate, parties need to have secured 25% of Wednesday's popular vote or 20% of the seats in the House. Otherwise, they can form coalitions to meet those thresholds."

          So much for shari'a in retreat. I'm certain there's an ebb and flow to it. You'll continue to see more regional expressions of shari'a first, which aren't going away, and slowly it will work its way through the rest of the country.

          I guarantee it.

          Eventually, this wave of religious expression will end. These things are cyclical. Unfortunately, I suspect it is something that is on the way up rather than out. Muslims in Indonesia feel as if there is tremendous pressure from their foes (read: Christians), and they are correct in this assessment. They will push back, and this will continue to create an environment for extremism (which I am not a fan of) and further pushes for our shari'a.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
            Eventually, this wave of religious expression will end. These things are cyclical. Unfortunately, I suspect it is something that is on the way up rather than out. Muslims in Indonesia feel as if there is tremendous pressure from their foes (read: Christians), and they are correct in this assessment. They will push back, and this will continue to create an environment for extremism (which I am not a fan of) and further pushes for our shari'a.
            Can you elaborate on this pressure from Christians? I have to say that it's quite unthinkable that a minority group like Christians would be able to wield any kind of power against Muslims in Indonesia.

            It seems to me that extremists tend to have a victim mentality, as if anything that doesn't fit their ideology is a personal attack against their religion. This doesn't just go for Muslim extremists, but also for fundamentalist Christians in the US. There's a difference between freedom of religious expression and forcing everybody else to live under religious rule.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
              eric insists that shari'a and Pancasila are opposed. This is incorrect. My stance has always been that Pancasila has been partially informed by our shari'a, that Indonesia has some enshrined elements of our shari'a.

              Support whatever ideology you like, eric, if you choose to support the state ideology of a nation that killed a lot of its own people that's your business. Go ahead and be a cheerleader for it.

              However, Prabowo was decidedly not a shari'a compliant candidate, but I suppose entered into an unholy alliance with some of the Muslim groups (and, interestingly, with GAM via Partai Aceh). You will continue to see the growth of shari'a in Indonesia, because that is the general direction of the entire Muslim world (which, yes, Indonesia is deeply a part of). Do note that only a few months back, Jokowi was expected to win by a landslide. His popularity, soon to go the way of the "wi"dodo, carried him through.

              Personally, I am quite pleased that Indonesia elected him to be president. Couldn't be happier. Prabowo would have set back Aceh independence decades, Jokowi presents an opportunity for jihad now as he will be ineffective. I am eagerly encouraging the Acehnese to take up arms now and push the issue of a referendum in the hopes that he is every bit as inept and ineffectual as he truly appears to be. Then we can truly have "Acehnesia," a silly thing to say as Aceh has no colonial designs on anyone else unlike their Javanese neighbors, and you can be rid of the "crazy" Muslims and all will be well. Someone such as yourself should be a staunch supporter of Aceh's independence and move towards our shari'a (or really, to Acehnese custom which is informed by shari'a) as it means that you'll be rid of them once and for all. Because everybody knows that it's just Aceh and not at all anywhere else.

              Oh dear. I guess we'll revisit this topic in a few years.
              "Take up arms"?! Why the need for violence? (Especially if you say Jokowi is so "weak"?)
              Things happen for a reason...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                Those counts showed four Islamic parties together took almost 30% of the vote, up from their 24% combined share in 2009. Many pollsters had predicted a further decline for the nation's handful of Islamic parties, whose share of the vote slid noticeably in 2009 elections.
                Wouldn't matter if the Islamic parties had a coalition of their own. They would never be able to agree on platforms or a candidate. I also doubt they would all agree on shari'a or the separation of Ache.

                Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                Eventually, this wave of religious expression will end. These things are cyclical. Unfortunately, I suspect it is something that is on the way up rather than out. Muslims in Indonesia feel as if there is tremendous pressure from their foes (read: Christians), and they are correct in this assessment. They will push back, and this will continue to create an environment for extremism (which I am not a fan of) and further pushes for our shari'a.
                Now Dan, you are showing your hatred for christians again. That's an old read from you. I'm sure there are more powerful influences on the Muslim people in Indonesia. Things like education, employment opportunities, world travel, and money.
                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                  "Take up arms"?! Why the need for violence? (Especially if you say Jokowi is so "weak"?)
                  Maybe Dan is thinking it would be a good time to take up arms because he is setting in New Orleans away from blades, pointy sticks, and bullets.
                  [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                    Maybe Dan is thinking it would be a good time to take up arms because he is setting in New Orleans away from blades, pointy sticks, and bullets.
                    New Orleans is significantly more dangerous.

                    http://www.nola.gov/nopd/crime-data/crime-stats/

                    Now, an Aceh that is in a state of rebellion? That would probably be a bit more dangerous, yes. You may recall, however, that I advocated a return to separatist warfare while I was *in* Aceh.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by indonomad View Post
                      Can you elaborate on this pressure from Christians? I have to say that it's quite unthinkable that a minority group like Christians would be able to wield any kind of power against Muslims in Indonesia.

                      It seems to me that extremists tend to have a victim mentality, as if anything that doesn't fit their ideology is a personal attack against their religion. This doesn't just go for Muslim extremists, but also for fundamentalist Christians in the US. There's a difference between freedom of religious expression and forcing everybody else to live under religious rule.
                      Indonomad, Christian missionaries operating in Indonesia are well-funded. Because indigenous Christians may not have the political clout does not mean that they are without resources. Considering the financial clout of Chinese Indonesians and the fact that so many are Christian also suggests that locally there is a good bit of funding behind their efforts. The fact that there are quite a few Christian media moguls means that they do influence popular culture and attitudes in the country. This is not insidious nor unique to them, clearly there are Muslims and Muslim voices doing the very same thing. However, to turn a blind eye to it would be a disaster.

                      I don't know about a victim mentality, but they certainly are our adversaries rather than our allies. It needn't be that way, but Muslims must be mindful of their dealings with such people and must always accept that they have ulterior motives. To put it bluntly: I don't trust them at all.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                        Now, an Aceh that is in a state of rebellion? That would probably be a bit more dangerous, yes. You may recall, however, that I advocated a return to separatist warfare while I was *in* Aceh.
                        Do you still advocate this? I have spent a fair amount of time in Aceh as a tourist. I have not detected a reasoned desire for this amongst the people. GAM? really?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                          Wouldn't matter if the Islamic parties had a coalition of their own. They would never be able to agree on platforms or a candidate. I also doubt they would all agree on shari'a or the separation of Ache.
                          Aceh's separatism is an issue completely separate from fundamentalist parties in Indonesia. That is an issue of Aceh separatism, which partially manifests in Aceh's embrace of the shari'a as envisioned by the Acehnese. Some elements of Qanun Aceh are quite unlike shari'a.


                          Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                          Now Dan, you are showing your hatred for christians again. That's an old read from you. I'm sure there are more powerful influences on the Muslim people in Indonesia. Things like education, employment opportunities, world travel, and money.
                          I freely admit my disdain for Christianity.

                          I'm certain that Muslims are not a monolith. I'm also certain, however, that Muslims place far greater emphasis on their religion than the expat forum gives them credit for. This is usually a result of perception bias (e.g. "my wife and her family are apostates so all Muslims in Indonesia are similarly hypocritical). For Muslims, Islam represents the answer to the above problems, and is not actually a separate issue from it. Islam and its attending shari'a present both a religion and a political ideology.

                          Something I'd like to put out for you and the others, something I often tell you, is that democracy leads to shari'a. This is because, given enough time and enough freedom, Muslims will gravitate towards implementation of the shari'a. Most have lived under autocratic regimes, the current "awakening" (revolts, "Islamism") is a result of that... and it will be felt similarly in Indonesia. Indonesia is, in reality, a Muslim country. Just because it had decades of strongmen does not mean that the Muslims have forgotten all about their religion and its political identity.

                          Had Indonesia elected Prabowo, you probably would have seen a greater crackdown on fanatics than with Jokowi. I suspect Jokowi will turn more of a blind eye, whereas Prabowo would only play nice with those groups who had supported him. The election of such a peoples' man, a waffle, will create a fresh environment for "Islamism" if he fails to live up to the hype. He will fail to live up to the hype. The more liberal the society, the easier it is for Islam to solidify. Only through autocracy can you control it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by johntap View Post
                            Do you still advocate this? I have spent a fair amount of time in Aceh as a tourist. I have not detected a reasoned desire for this amongst the people. GAM? really?
                            I absolutely advocate jihad in Aceh if Indonesia does not relinquish its colonial hold on Aceh.

                            There are two minds about this in Aceh, john. The first is the most prevalent, "we're tired of fighting." They've had decades of separatist fighting. They still want to be separate, but they're fatigued. Everyone has relatives who were killed or tortured or raped or all of the above by Indonesian forces. They don't want to go through more of that, but they still hate Indonesia. Sometimes this takes the form of other ideas of separatism e.g. Sumatran independence.

                            The second is that of the separatists who never really put down their weapons.

                            For the record, most of GAM falls into the former and not the latter. Some of my relatives were in GAM, and they mostly advocated a peaceful means to separation. I too would prefer this.

                            Aceh is still controlled by GAM. Most of the political parties are GAM factions, and the elections are truthfully GAM vs GAM.

                            Did you look around much at the flags in Aceh? Did you notice that nearly everywhere, Partai Aceh's flag (which is also the Acehnese independence flag) flies proudly? Did you notice the overwhelming support for Qanun Aceh (not truly shari'a, but informed by it heavily)? Did you ask many people how they felt?

                            Now is a good time for Aceh to seek its independence for two reasons.

                            1.) Social media. The atrocities committed by Indonesia are largely unknown to the outside world. That would end in a new rebellion as Indonesia cannot control the flow of information.
                            2.) Jokowi is weak. He may even entertain a referendum, though I doubt it. An uprising would likely go very poorly for him and his image as a "peoples' man." He's simply not ready for it.

                            The chief problem Aceh has now concerning rebellion is GAM's leadership, which has grown wealthy out of playing along with the Central Government. They even partnered with Prabowo for Pete's sake. I suspect that the general wish to maintain the peace will mean that Aceh won't take this opportunity.
                            Last edited by DanInAceh; 26-07-14, 08:35.

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                            • #15
                              If any of you seek to understand WHY the Acehnese have so many separatists, consider reading Hasan di Tiro's biography.

                              http://www.slideshare.net/chairul4bd...-hasan-di-tiro

                              He is still revered as a national hero in Aceh, yet another sign that separatism is alive and well there.

                              Keep in mind that Aceh's struggle for independence is based on Aceh nationalism rather than "Islamism" or a desire for shari'a.

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