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  • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    An interesting question, johntap. That really depends on how you define music. It isn't precisely musical instruments that are banned, though there is substantial evidence that stringed instruments and sensual female voices (define as you will) are haram.

    Clearly, this has never been universally accepted, otherwise we wouldn't see stringed instruments from Muslim populations. *I* don't personally accept this as there is conflicting information, including a hadith where Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) hears music at a wedding and states that it is good. Also, percussion is universally considered permissible.

    .........

    Thanks, the matter of nasheed came up recently. I listened to some and did a bit of reading. Btw you'd have to kill to take dangdut out of this country. I am no musicologist but I am pretty sure dangdut has post-islamic Arabic origins.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
      Your numbers are deaths solely from alcohol and not from alcohol related accidents. Also, they come from a questionable, biased site. I dug up facts from the WHO, whereas you gave us crap from "drugwarfacts." Seriously? Way to prove my point.

      Your numbers also don't include the number of people injured by alcohol, nor the amount of productivity lost, nor the amount of violence associated with alcohol... honestly, your little detective work and its attending math is incredibly lazy.

      It's not the misuse of alcohol, it's a product which has the intended use of getting stupid. Keep your booze on your home shores and leave the local populace alone.
      I dont appreciate your tone. "crap" "stupid" "keep your booze" " leave the local populous alone"

      If all you can do is slip into personal slights and insults you aren't worth debating with.

      And I made it VERY clear in my post that the numbers included ONLY deaths directly attributed to the use of alcohol, not as a result of accidents mishaps and other things which occured as a result of being drunk. You were attempting to say that alcohol is a dangerous substance, where as in fact it is not particularly dangerous if used correctly. Instead you are attenpting to fixate on what you feel proves your point, but in fact the only point proven is that when you cannot properly argue your point you are reduced to personal insults.

      Bad show Dan

      FYI, I have been drinking alcohol for over 30 years. I am not aan alcoholic. I have never beaten my wife, I have never run over anyone in my car while drunk, nor am I suffering from any alcohol related diseases or mental issues.

      And as for the local populous Danny boy, the bataks chinese and nearly half of all muslims I know are regular drinkers, so perhaps you could take your pious indignation for a walk and let it cool off. I will leave you with this as my exit from this thread:

      [FONT=Trebuchet MS][FONT=times new roman]Muslim-3753: ''[/FONT][FONT=times new roman]We were with the Prophet of Allah, and He was thirsty, and a man said: O prophet of Allah, Do you want to drink wine[/FONT][FONT=times new roman]? Prophet of Allah said: Yes[/FONT][FONT=times new roman].The Man went to get the wine. The Prophet of Allah said: [/FONT][FONT=times new roman]Make it Intoxicated[/FONT][FONT=times new roman]. And [/FONT][FONT=times new roman]He (Muhamad) Drank[/FONT][FONT=times new roman].”

      The Arabic word used is Nabeed which means wine, it can be free from intoxication, however in that hadith [/FONT][FONT=times new roman]the prophet insisted that it must be intoxicated[/FONT][/FONT]
      "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

      Comment


      • So, let me get this straight, you dug up that "hadith" word for word from the mouths of our enemies (via "wikiislam" lol) and believed it to be true? That's funny. Do yourself a favor and never speak on the topic of Islam again, not because you shouldn't discuss Islam but because you just don't know anything. Here's the ACTUAL HADITH #3753

        "[COLOR=#121212][FONT=Arial]Mujahid said to Tiwus: Come along with me to Ibn Rafi b. Khadij in order to listen from him the hadith transmitted on the authority of his father (pertaining to the renting of land) from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him). He (Tawus) scolded him and said: By Allah, it I were to know that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had forbidden it, I would have never done it. But it has been narrated to me by one who has better knowledge of it amongst them (and he meant Ibn 'Abbas) that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: It is better if a person lends, his land to his brother (for cultivation) than that he gets recognised rent on it."

        And from a scholarly source: [/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/010-smt.php

        Aside from that, you believe that nabidh refers to an alcoholic beverage, eh? That it is wine? Is that how it is described in the Qur'an? That's easy enough to see. The primary verses that deal with the prohibition of wine are 5:90 and 91. Here's a transliteration of 5:91.

        [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times]"'[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Times]I[/FONT][FONT=Times]nn[/FONT][FONT=Times]amā Yu[/FONT][FONT=Times]r[/FONT][FONT=Times]ī[/FONT][FONT=Times]du[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT]sh[FONT=Times]-[/FONT]Sh[FONT=Times]ay[/FONT][FONT=Times]ţ[/FONT][FONT=Times]ā[/FONT][FONT=Times]nu 'A[/FONT][FONT=Times]n[/FONT][FONT=Times] Yū[/FONT][FONT=Times]q[/FONT][FONT=Times]i`a Baynakumu[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT][FONT=Times]l-`Adāwata Wa[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT][FONT=Times]l-Ba[/FONT]gh[FONT=Times]đ[/FONT][FONT=Times]ā[/FONT][FONT=Times]'a Fī[/FONT][FONT=Times]A[/FONT][FONT=Times]l-[/FONT]Kh[FONT=Times]a[/FONT][FONT=Times]m[/FONT][FONT=Times]r[/FONT][FONT=Times]i Wa[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT][FONT=Times]l-Maysi[/FONT][FONT=Times]r[/FONT][FONT=Times]i Wa Ya[/FONT][FONT=Times]ş[/FONT][FONT=Times]u[/FONT][FONT=Times]d[/FONT][FONT=Times]daku[/FONT][FONT=Times]m[/FONT][FONT=Times] `A[/FONT][FONT=Times]n[/FONT][FONT=Times] [/FONT]Dh[FONT=Times]ik[/FONT][FONT=Times]r[/FONT][FONT=Times]i[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT][FONT=Times]l-Lah[/FONT][FONT=Times]i[/FONT][FONT=Times] Wa `Ani[/FONT][FONT=Times] A[/FONT][FONT=Times]ş[/FONT][FONT=Times]-[/FONT][FONT=Times]Ş[/FONT][FONT=Times]alāati [/FONT][FONT=Times]ۖ[/FONT][FONT=Times]Fahal 'A[/FONT][FONT=Times]n[/FONT][FONT=Times]tu[/FONT][FONT=Times]m[/FONT][FONT=Times] Mu[/FONT][FONT=Times]n[/FONT][FONT=Times]tah[/FONT][FONT=Times]ū[/FONT][FONT=Times]n[/FONT][FONT=Times]a[/FONT][COLOR=#C0C0C0][FONT=Times]"
        [/FONT][/COLOR]
        See that highlighted word, al-khamri? That's wine. Does that look like "nabidh" or "nabeez" or whatever to you? No. It describes a different drink, non-fermented.

        Now, I dunno the provenance of that "hadith" you gave me, but I am willing to bet that it's obviously not hadith number 3753 in Muslim and it's probably tortured beyond belief if it really is a hadith somewhere.

        If you're going to quote from a hate site, how should I treat you? You neglected to include possibly millions of fatalities because you believe that's just the 'irresponsible' use of alcohol like I'm sure there's also 'irresponsible' use of methamphetamine (a scheduled drug with medicinal properties) or cocaine (ditto) or heroin (yet again). And ya know what? We ban 'em, and with good reason. Quit trying to inject religion into this discussion because, quite frankly, you know too little about Islam and it's not germane to the subject.

        Comment


        • Please note that, as before, Mr Fizzywig summons arguments from sites with dubious "information" whereas I take the time to find scholarly sources. I mean, wtf? You're complaining about how dismissive I am and you continue to polish turds for me? Psh. Some friend to Muslims you are. I know that every time I get into a heated debate with my Jewish friends I instantly go to stormfront.org and rense.com to find cutting edge information on Judaism.

          (That was sarcasm.)

          Comment


          • how should I treat you?
            Well you had already started to be insulting and rude Dan, so I don't feel I am losing very much to be honest.

            scheduled drugs
            meth, and cocaine are, alcohol is not.

            Not germaine to the subject...
            How little you know yourself Dan

            Now run along like a good fellow and practice your social skills, if you were as knowledgable as you presume yourself to be, I doubt very much you would dirty your hands with the kind of name calling and petty insults I see in your recent posts.

            Billions of people disagree with your opinion that alcohol is such a dangerous substance that it should be banned. BILLIONS Dan. That perhaps should give you pause for thought or are you the supreme arbiter of all knowledge whose opinion should be accepted and never challenged? Have you perhaps been sitting pontificating on the internet for too long and lost your sense of perspective a little? I can't say I know, I fortunately, have never met you in person.

            Now to step aside from my annoyance at your schooboy insults for a moment, the points you raise are indeed valid, however so are mine. I have attemped to be balanced and see both sides of the issue many times. You have made no such effort. You therefore presume yourself to be correct and everyone else wrong, and as they are wrong I consider your insults to be based on the false arrogance of believing yourself to be in a position of superior understanding and knowledge, whereas in actual fact, you are just as ignorant as the rest of us.

            I would rather drink a beer than wallow in the pit of my own hubris
            Last edited by Mr Fizzywig; 24-07-14, 21:21.
            "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
              My understanding is that Indonesia officially recognises 5 religions,
              Six religions, MOB. The sixth is "Konfucianisme" or Confucianism. While I have not personally met anyone in Indonesia who has identified themselves as a Confucianist, I would guess that followers of this religion still exist here, though certainly not in large numbers as far as I know.


              and surely this lays the groundwork for the mantra that provided it doesn't impinge upon others safety and rights - no one should be persecuted for their religion. Mutual respect. And that includes respect that others may not be familiar with your religion, it's associated terms or norms.
              If you mean that I should have respect for someone not bothering to learn the difference between "Muslim" and "Islam", I disagree with you, MOB, particularly when the person in question writes a good number of posts on this forum in which he seems to ponder or critique both the religion called "Islam" and the people called "Muslims". I think there is a good possibility that the incorrect usage was deliberate, in which case it was an intentional "abrasion" which shows in itself a definite lack of respect for both the religion and the people (which the same poster has demonstrated repeatedly on this forum in numerous instances).

              In general, I agree that the first principle of Pancasila, in context of the other four, was essentially meant to establish such an environment of "tolerance and mutual respect" among peoples of different religious faiths (assuming Pancasila is what you refer to by "the mantra that provided it doesn't impinge upon others safety and rights - no one should be persecuted for their religion. Mutual respect.")

              I would also point out, however, that (from my perspective) many foreigners who come to Indonesia do not show a great amount of respect for the majority religion and its culture (to put it mildly), yet they insist on their own rights to have their own values respected and tolerated, no matter how far they may be at odds with that religion and culture. Remember who built the house, after all, and whose garden you are actually camping in. It's Indonesia's house, built in the garden that is Indonesia, and that garden belongs to Indonesians alone, not to everybody. We ARE guests here, you know. Don't come to another man's house without showing respect for his own "house rules" and values and then expect him to show respect for you and your beliefs and values. (I'm not saying this statement applies to you personally, but it does apply to many posters on this forum , or at least to the attitudes they openly display here.)


              And yes, not all Indonesians are Muslim, and yes, that is a significant part of why the Pancasila was designed in the first place. You might find some of this interesting, particularly the part which puts in question whether Point one of Pancasila refers to "belief in God" generally or to "belief in the One God (Allah):

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_%28politics%29

              "The fifth Sila of Sukarno become the first Sila of the Jakarta Charter and the wording became "Ketuhanan dengan kewajiban menjalankan syariah Islam bagi pemeluk-pemeluknya" (Belief in Almighty God with the obligation for its Muslim adherents to carry out the Islamic law/Syari'ah). On August 18, 1945 the Committee for the preparation of Indonesian Independence changed the formulation of the first sentence of Pancasila by removing the words "with the obligation of its Muslims adherents to follow Syariah", so the first sila became "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa".[7]"


              "Another criticism is the sentences of principle 1: Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa or "Belief in One Supreme God" which suggests national preference to monotheism. This staunch reverence to monotheism is feared would lead to discrimination.[13] This first principle sentence is problematic for certain religions, namely Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism. Although Buddhism and Hinduism are considered as classical religions in Indonesian history, the adherence to the one and only God is not exactly correct to describe these dharmic religions. The believers of Hinduism, sometimes are considered more likely to be polytheistic with myriad of gods, hyangs and deities to be revered, and which are practised by a significant minority of Indonesians. While Buddhism recognizes the existence of divinities, it does not stress their spiritual pursuit on worshipping God, but the deliverance from the samsara cycle to achieve nirvana. As the result, Indonesian Hindus and Buddhists must struggle to find a somewhat monotheistic counterpart concept in their faith. Which resulted in the national adoption of the concepts of Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa and Adi-Buddha as their version of the supreme God.

              The 1st principle of the Pancasila is also argued by some[who?] to be in tension with the principle of art and freedom of expression. Article 29 on Religious Freedom of the Indonesian Constitution (UUD 1945), stated as:[citation needed]

              Chapter XI. Religion Article 29 1. The State shall be based upon the belief in the One and Only God. 2. The State guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief.[14]

              Less moderate Muslims have criticized Pancasila for being too secular and inclusive, diluting the uniqueness of Islam by placing man-made precepts at a higher level than the Qur'an. For example, the Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) terror group is one of the latest anti-Pancasila manifestations. JI's precursor was the Darul Islam movement[15] which in 1948 challenged the new secularist republic through a civil war that claimed some 27,000 lives.[16]"
              Last edited by Mister Bule; 24-07-14, 21:23.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

              The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

              Comment


              • and just to poke your ribs a little, just a little, here's what Lords of the Drinks has to say on the subject, I make no assumptions as to the scholarly validity of the opinion presented, but as with the previous quote I made, I found it amusing. No insult to Islam or Muhamed is intended. You don't get off so lightly however.

                http://lordsofthedrinks.com/2013/08/...-like-mohamed/
                Last edited by Mr Fizzywig; 24-07-14, 21:22.
                "He who has no manners has no knowledge..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                  Six religions, MOB. The sixth is "Konfucianisme" or Confucianism. While I have not personally met anyone in Indonesia who has identified themselves as a Confucianist, I would guess that followers of this religion still exist here, though certainly not in large numbers as far as I know.




                  If you mean that I should have respect for someone not bothering to learn the difference between "Muslim" and "Islam", I disagree with you, MOB, particularly when the person in question writes a good number of posts on this forum in which he seems to ponder or critique both the religion called "Islam" and the people called "Muslims". I think there is a good possibility that the incorrect usage was deliberate, in which case it was an intentional "abrasion" which shows in itself a definite lack of respect for both the religion and the people (which the same poster has demonstrated repeatedly on this forum in numerous instances).

                  In general, I agree that the first principle of Pancasila, in context of the other four, was essentially meant to establish such an environment of "tolerance and mutual respect" among peoples of different religious faiths (assuming Pancasila is what you refer to by "the mantra that provided it doesn't impinge upon others safety and rights - no one should be persecuted for their religion. Mutual respect.")

                  I would also point out, however, that (from my perspective) many foreigners who come to Indonesia do not show a great amount of respect for the majority religion and its culture (to put it mildly), yet they insist on their own rights to have their own values respected and tolerated, no matter how far they may be at odds with that religion and culture. Remember who built the house, after all, and whose garden you are actually camping in. It's Indonesia's house, built in the garden that is Indonesia, and that garden belongs to Indonesians alone, not to everybody. We ARE guests here, you know. Don't come to another man's house without showing respect for his own "house rules" and values and then expect him to show respect for you and your beliefs and values. (I'm not saying this statement applies to you personally, but it does apply to many posters on this forum , or at least to the attitudes they openly display here.)


                  And yes, not all Indonesians are Muslim, and yes, that is a significant part of why the Pancasila was designed in the first place. You might find some of this interesting, particularly the part which puts in question whether Point one of Pancasila refers to "belief in God" generally or to "belief in the One God (Allah):

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_%28politics%29

                  "The fifth Sila of Sukarno become the first Sila of the Jakarta Charter and the wording became "Ketuhanan dengan kewajiban menjalankan syariah Islam bagi pemeluk-pemeluknya" (Belief in Almighty God with the obligation for its Muslim adherents to carry out the Islamic law/Syari'ah). On August 18, 1945 the Committee for the preparation of Indonesian Independence changed the formulation of the first sentence of Pancasila by removing the words "with the obligation of its Muslims adherents to follow Syariah", so the first sila became "Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa".[7]"


                  "Another criticism is the sentences of principle 1: Ketuhanan yang Maha Esa or "Belief in One Supreme God" which suggests national preference to monotheism. This staunch reverence to monotheism is feared would lead to discrimination.[13] This first principle sentence is problematic for certain religions, namely Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism. Although Buddhism and Hinduism are considered as classical religions in Indonesian history, the adherence to the one and only God is not exactly correct to describe these dharmic religions. The believers of Hinduism, sometimes are considered more likely to be polytheistic with myriad of gods, hyangs and deities to be revered, and which are practised by a significant minority of Indonesians. While Buddhism recognizes the existence of divinities, it does not stress their spiritual pursuit on worshipping God, but the deliverance from the samsara cycle to achieve nirvana. As the result, Indonesian Hindus and Buddhists must struggle to find a somewhat monotheistic counterpart concept in their faith. Which resulted in the national adoption of the concepts of Sang Hyang Widhi Wasa and Adi-Buddha as their version of the supreme God.

                  The 1st principle of the Pancasila is also argued by some[who?] to be in tension with the principle of art and freedom of expression. Article 29 on Religious Freedom of the Indonesian Constitution (UUD 1945), stated as:[citation needed]

                  Chapter XI. Religion Article 29 1. The State shall be based upon the belief in the One and Only God. 2. The State guarantees all persons the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief.[14]

                  Less moderate Muslims have criticized Pancasila for being too secular and inclusive, diluting the uniqueness of Islam by placing man-made precepts at a higher level than the Qur'an. For example, the Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) terror group is one of the latest anti-Pancasila manifestations. JI's precursor was the Darul Islam movement[15] which in 1948 challenged the new secularist republic through a civil war that claimed some 27,000 lives.[16]"
                  Respect and tolerance are surely the keys all round. The rest is just detail.
                  Things happen for a reason...

                  Comment


                  • There sure are a lot of facts thrown around in this thread with little logic applied. In the engineering world this is what sets apart the bad technicians/engineers and the good ones. The bad ones are either bad at their job or act smart by spouting formulas and theorems and regulations and scientific facts. But they have absolutely no idea how the facts are applicable in the situation, no logic. So just because someone throws around lots of facts, it doesn't mean you've applied any logic to it and have the right facts to support your opinion.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                      Six religions, MOB. The sixth is "Konfucianisme" or Confucianism. While I have not personally met anyone in Indonesia who has identified themselves as a Confucianist, I would guess that followers of this religion still exist here, though certainly not in large numbers as far as I know.]"

                      Whilst being a Muslim on my KTP, I am a a Confucian on two of my bank accounts and my Ranch Market loyalty card.

                      Comment


                      • Well there are more recreational alcohol drinkers in the world than there are practicing (abstaining) Muslims. So majority rules

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by vanuatu View Post
                          Whilst being a Muslim on my KTP, I am a a Confucian on two of my bank accounts and my Ranch Market loyalty card.
                          Funny you mention that, I was the same on my ranch market card, but also a registered Hindu on my grand Indonesia points card

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                            Respect and tolerance are surely the keys all round. The rest is just detail.
                            Ah yes, the details. That's where the devil resides, or so I've heard.
                            Last edited by Mister Bule; 25-07-14, 11:20.
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                            The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by vanuatu View Post
                              Whilst being a Muslim on my KTP, I am a a Confucian on two of my bank accounts and my Ranch Market loyalty card.
                              Congratulations, you're a truly "multifaceted" individual.
                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                              The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                                Congratulations, you're a truly "multifaceted" individual.
                                multifacetious?

                                Comment

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