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  • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    Quoting an avowed Muslim hater, lantern? Yes, I'm sure that information gleaned from Ali Sina will be objective. It's a bit like quoting from David Duke (an avowed anti-Semite) when speaking of Jews. He too suggests that societies without Jews live closer to the principles of Godliness than those with. Shall I quote from David Duke, or do you get the point?
    [SIZE=2][FONT=arial]I believe he was quoting "[/FONT][FONT=arial]Hossein Askari, an Iranian-born professor of International Business and International Affairs at George Washington University" Ali Sina had nothing to do with it. [/FONT][FONT=arial]Rather than attacking the messenger, do you think he may have a point? Are Islamic rulers too obsessed with the fringe issues in people's lives, such as segregation of the sexes and alcohol use while ignoring the fundamentals such as economic development, human rights,, equality and justice? If Islamic teachings are central to people's lives then why isn't it reflected in the way the rulers of, self-described, Islamic countries carry out their duties? [/FONT]
    [/SIZE][SIZE=2]
    [/SIZE]Here's the full study for your perusal. It seems a balanced, fair and objective with multiple references.
    http://relooney.fatcow.com/SI_Expedi...portant_87.pdf
    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • Originally posted by sul1995 View Post
      If alcohol is banned, I’ll ask for a 50% raise, this hardship post has become a lot harder for drinkers. Imagine if this country goes shariah, I won’t work here even with 100% raise. For sure, my wife doesn’t want to be forced to wear hijab (in this hot & humid climate). Foreign companies will find it more difficult to assign people to work here, their costs go up, then they’ll ask themselves “is it worth it”?.
      Exactly.
      if I was still working in Indonesia (also considered a hardship posting by my company), id ask for the same. If they switched to sharia law and it saw a closure of all bars across Jakarta (actually Enforced) then I dare say most of expats on packages (excl teachers) would have to have the salary seriously revisited or they would jump ship. Having to take a flight just to have a few beers would suck big time. A huge proportion would just flat out leave and not look back

      but I'm sure just like Dan says that all of the measly Unwanted tourist dollars propping up the entire economies in places like Bali, I'm sure the skilled workers brought into Jakarta and elsewhere can also get out and keep their skills to themselves, without letting the door hit our arses on the way out..

      Comment


      • Dan, i was writing for a few hours to reply your reply...
        all just wiped away coz an error so im just gonna make this short...

        reason Indonesia went to Papua is Aite Karubaba, my previous statement is based on one of his descendent testimony to me. Aite is a representative of 20 tribe on which include Dani tribe, and 20ish other tribe (the person say that even Biak Tribe is among them). While the reason OPM existed is more on a social-politic-humanitarian-economic reason. But never forget that unlike GAM, OPM only have 2 tribe as their main supporter, with less then 10 other tribe that supported them (Papua have more then 100 tribe), so yes even OPM cant even say that they are a representative of Papua. Those two tribe still existed till this very day (and still one of the majority tribe in Papua still less then quarter Papuan tho even when you combine them), so its a nonsense to say something as harsh as ethnic clensing! Papuan people is still a majority at Papua, 2nd is eastern Indonesian, 3rd ly other (include javaneese). And it would still be easier to search for a Koteka then a Batik there, so once again you were saying something about ethnic clensing? Oh and yes, i can say i represent them, atleast more then you do (sorry if this might sound harsh). Seriously Dan you got to stop comparing Aceh and Papua, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME CASE! The basic reason and agitation for independency from those 2 region is not the same, Papua never even had the priviledge of what Aceh have today but still you would see that there barely a conflict between OPM and TNI for the last 5 year. For the the "heart-break" Papuan, Indonesia is a failed savior not a colonialist Dan. All this statement i was making about Papuan is "interview to local" base Dan, not a textbook propoganda that i got at history lesson. I never believe or say that "NKRI harga mati!" what i wanted to believe is "NKRI is the best solution".

        You really want to hear my opinion regarding Aceh, Dan?

        I'm too lazy too write (again) the different about Jokowi and Obama, i just wish in the end Jokowi can show it. I can summarize it in one sentence tho, Obama gave "unproven" hope during his 1st campaign while Jokowi give a "proven" hope during his campaign. That is what seperate them.

        Regarding a few of your last questions. Even some of that is debatable by me (i got a cousin who work at EU consulat and my political representative is either a Bantenese, a Betawinese or Sundanese at last legislative), but lets just say i agree to whatever the answer according to your lead. So is it wrong, if me or any other people from east of Indonesia still wanted to give Indonesia a last chance? what if u are the one who stand at the wrong side eventually? Even at Islam i do believe your faith declare that nothing but His will that is certain. (Insya Allah = 99% Human effort 1% Allah will (its something like this i think)).

        You see Dan, if you are saying that our commitment is fragile, i would agree 100%. And the Alcohol Bill would indeed wounded that fragile commitment.

        Now, my question to you, from your statements to me and everything within it. It seem you were trying to let Alcohol Bill got implemented just to make a chaos in Indonesia, no? If not why are you trying so eagerly to provoke something that is without basis?

        Regarding you wife, my sympathy but she's not alone. Atleast she never felt how is to be a all-around-minority like me.
        10 step to eternity...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
          Have you read my posts concerning marijuana before, mike? To start with, I don't support the consumption of marijuana either. It too is more malignant than its boosters, who need to get back to their bongs, are willing to accept. With that said, the Acehnese do use marijuana seeds in their traditional cooking. Is it enough to get someone high? Not from my experience.

          With that said, the Islamic view on marijuana is murky. Remember that Islam is a religion of extreme legalism, and marijuana is not mentioned. In fiqh, jurisprudence, it is forbidden to forbid that which is not forbidden. As marijuana has not been forbidden, it falls into more of a gray area. It may be considered an intoxicant, and it is almost certainly makruh (disliked). However, it is unlikely that it is haram (forbidden). There are multiple levels of permissibility. I have discussed previously that some older schools of Muslim thought believed alcohol to also be murky, as it is wine that is literally prohibited. Is only wine prohibited? A majority says no, but there are arguments for its permissibility so long as you do not get intoxicated (which is forbidden no matter what you consume).

          Now then, I want to be clear about something, since all of you apparently suck at reading comprehension. I AM ARGUING AGAINST ALCOHOL BASED ON CONCERNS FOR PUBLIC HEALTH. Please, stick to the actual debate.

          Also also, Indonesia really IS a Muslim country and really does have some laws informed by our shari'a. You're living in your own private Indonesia if you believe otherwise.
          Ah its debatable Dan, i do believe some might say, that stuff must be really good to make you this way... or probably some might say sarcasticly "what were you cooking?"...

          As long as its not Islamic Country ... sorry i can debate it here but would feel so wrong...
          10 step to eternity...

          Comment


          • So Indonesia is an Islamic country.. But with a Christian president and a Christian govener running the capital ? .. You sure Dan?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Donting101 View Post
              So Indonesia is an Islamic country.. But with a Christian president and a Christian govener running the capital ? .. You sure Dan?
              and half of the so-called Islams are only ktp-islams not in reality

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Berlarutlarut View Post
                and half of the so-called Islams are only ktp-islams not in reality
                And the other half are mostly confused individuals. Many Muslims I've met over the years both in the Middle East and at home have been confused how to follow islam 'properly' (as per Dans household), especially the ones I've met in the pub after work

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Berlarutlarut View Post
                  and half of the so-called Islams are only ktp-islams not in reality
                  (Cough) It's "Muslims", not "Islams" ... grow a lobe already, willya?
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                  The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Donting101 View Post
                    So Indonesia is an Islamic country.. But with a Christian president and a Christian govener running the capital ? .. You sure Dan?
                    Jokowi a "closet Christian"? You must have been using tim Prabowo as your only "news" source.

                    Good luk, 'muk-'muk.
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Warden: "What we got here ... is failure to communicate."

                    The Dude: "Oh yeah? Well that's just, like, your opinion, man."[/FONT]

                    Comment


                    • I thought Jokowi did a "Mecca-run" on the cusp of the election? Isn't he Muslim?

                      Either way - it shouldn't matter!

                      My understanding is that Indonesia officially recognises 5 religions, and surely this lays the groundwork for the mantra that provided it doesn't impinge upon others safety and rights - no one should be persecuted for their religion. Mutual respect. And that includes respect that others may not be familiar with your religion, it's associated terms or norms.

                      Dan an is quite right though that alcohol is a huge problem, world wide, and probably would not be "approved" had we "invented" it now. Or would it? No-one can say. Would petrol and oil be allowed? Plastics, uranium - knowing now what we know about their effects on the world and people? Reality is, alcohol is here to stay; it cannot be "undiscovered" and is tightly entwined in innumerable cultures - including religions! What will communion be performed with? Alcohol is not going anywhere.

                      Attempts at moderating it's effects probably are warranted in some cultures. Alcohol does cost some communities dearly - but so does fast food, sugary drinks, tobacco, gambling, guns, spray paint cans and glue. Sidewalks are dangerous places, bicycles and cars are even worse! Walking is dangerous! Climbing tres! Knives, ladders, slippery tiles, unfenced pools all undoubtedly kill many each year. Seafood and peanut allergies! Illicit drugs are even bigger problems - including marijuana.

                      So, do we rid society of all these things...!? It would be nice and simple - in some ways, but really is not practical nor achievable. Education, some legislation are probably better and more achievable approaches.

                      People are people - humans, adults - who have a right to make poor decisions. Including Muslims! It's when those decisions affect others there begins to be issues, and it gets tricky.
                      Things happen for a reason...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
                        all just wiped away coz an error so im just gonna make this short...
                        Happens a lot, unfortunately. There seems to be a "time-out" in the forum where if you walk away for a snack (or spend too long typing, with no browser command given) for X minutes, you get cut-off and have to log back in. In such case, as soon as you get "unauthorized to post", copy the reply with your mouse/trackpad and paste into a text file on your desktop. In some cases, you can even do this after hitting the BACK button of the browser.

                        I'm too lazy too write (again) the different about Jokowi and Obama, i just wish in the end Jokowi can show it. I can summarize it in one sent
                        ence tho, Obama gave "unproven" hope during his 1st campaign while Jokowi give a "proven" hope during his campaign. That is what seperate them.
                        Not a bad summary, but unfortunately Jokowi's "proven" hope is rather limited -- mostly a good listener, able to streamline bureaucracy. He backed down on the minimum wage increase, and Jak Globe is now praising how "cooperative" he is with neocolonialists who shout "resource nationalism" every time a third world country wants to get a better deal for its natural resources, such as refining its own oil, building with its own timber, processing its own metallic ore. But we're drifting from the topic of alcohol.

                        As I said a few pages back, this *proposed* bill sounds like the annual demand of the screamers for a childish "hadiah lebaran" that institutes another piece of shariah. They propose several "hadiah" and naturally some look like lesser of two (or three) evils, so those are the ones that pass DPR. I'd guess that an alcohol ban is the greater of two evils, included just to scare people and make the other proposals seem "tame".

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mister Bule View Post
                          (Cough) It's "Muslims", not "Islams" ... grow a lobe already, willya?
                          Oh, Chimp, chill willya? Chomper was just typing shorthand for something like "KTP-Islam identifiers", referring to registration process. That's how I saw it.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                            .........

                            With that said, the Islamic view on marijuana is murky. Remember that Islam is a religion of extreme legalism, and marijuana is not mentioned. In fiqh, jurisprudence, it is forbidden to forbid that which is not forbidden. As marijuana has not been forbidden, it falls into more of a gray area. I...........

                            Is this a part of the reason why you said earlier that Islam is intolerant?

                            Is the case of use of "music" any less murky than use of marijuana in Islam?
                            Last edited by johntap; 24-07-14, 11:49.

                            Comment


                            • An interesting question, johntap. That really depends on how you define music. It isn't precisely musical instruments that are banned, though there is substantial evidence that stringed instruments and sensual female voices (define as you will) are haram.

                              Clearly, this has never been universally accepted, otherwise we wouldn't see stringed instruments from Muslim populations. *I* don't personally accept this as there is conflicting information, including a hadith where Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) hears music at a wedding and states that it is good. Also, percussion is universally considered permissible.

                              Marjiuana, however, seems to go unmentioned. I doubt it was unknown to the Muslims, so to me that suggests it may in fact be permissible PROVIDED the person is not intoxicated. I personally support a ban on marijuana outside of medicinal purposes, but I doubt it would be shari'a compliant to do so unless it causes crave bodily harm and intoxication. It's likely that most jurists consider it makruh (harmful, disliked).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                                I thought Jokowi did a "Mecca-run" on the cusp of the election? Isn't he Muslim?

                                Either way - it shouldn't matter!

                                My understanding is that Indonesia officially recognises 5 religions, and surely this lays the groundwork for the mantra that provided it doesn't impinge upon others safety and rights - no one should be persecuted for their religion. Mutual respect. And that includes respect that others may not be familiar with your religion, it's associated terms or norms.

                                Dan an is quite right though that alcohol is a huge problem, world wide, and probably would not be "approved" had we "invented" it now. Or would it? No-one can say. Would petrol and oil be allowed? Plastics, uranium - knowing now what we know about their effects on the world and people? Reality is, alcohol is here to stay; it cannot be "undiscovered" and is tightly entwined in innumerable cultures - including religions! What will communion be performed with? Alcohol is not going anywhere.

                                Attempts at moderating it's effects probably are warranted in some cultures. Alcohol does cost some communities dearly - but so does fast food, sugary drinks, tobacco, gambling, guns, spray paint cans and glue. Sidewalks are dangerous places, bicycles and cars are even worse! Walking is dangerous! Climbing tres! Knives, ladders, slippery tiles, unfenced pools all undoubtedly kill many each year. Seafood and peanut allergies! Illicit drugs are even bigger problems - including marijuana.

                                So, do we rid society of all these things...!? It would be nice and simple - in some ways, but really is not practical nor achievable. Education, some legislation are probably better and more achievable approaches.

                                People are people - humans, adults - who have a right to make poor decisions. Including Muslims! It's when those decisions affect others there begins to be issues, and it gets tricky.
                                i do believe the bold word is the best solution regarding alcohol in Indonesia.
                                10 step to eternity...

                                Comment

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