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  • #76
    Exactly Stephen Flynn

    Indonesia as a whole is not a culturally alchoholic nation. We prefer ice tea than wine for dinner. So banning alcohol here is really pointless. The ones (indonesian) who wants and likes to drink will make their own illegal booze, just like they've been doing all this time.
    Indonesia is perplexing. Deal with it!

    Comment


    • #77
      Alcohol ban. Another door for bribery and corruption. Tommy Soeharto used to be the sole legal importer for boozes.

      Comment


      • #78
        at most province in Indonesia (include Jakarta i think) it already made illegal by the Provincial Law, but some (include Jakarta) do not include beer or traditional drink...while from the way i look at the future bill it include both... no one probably would feel it if they were at the province with "almost 0" drinkers... but if you been to Bali or Manado you can easily see people sippin on bear like drinking from a fresh waterspring, while at Papua some tribe still have traditional liquor and some local there also enjoy beer...

        ok lets just forget about Bali or Manado for the moment... but lets talk about Papua...

        I still believe that most of Papua people still love this country, they are very pessimistic that other Indonesian or the Goverment care about them before, but ever since theres a new Idol winner from Papua and also the win (hopefully) of Jokowi-JK from the coming election they have a high hope that Jakarta (and all of Indonesian) would finally would look at them...

        (for those Americans who once had a high expectation of Obama should be able to know this) now can you imagine that the 1st bill that comes after that "high hope" is to ban them from taken their Traditional Drink? I doubt they would see it coming, i believe they were hoping education, health care, and other basic need bill that would comes 1st... you might say what i'm about to say is cliche or "stupid" paranoia but this the truth (since i once hang out with a Papua community)... they do take every issue that formed (from their point of view) a lack of tollerance against their tradition as a product of javaneese muslim that offended the whole Papua community...

        These people would be easily choose independence rather than stay in a country that obviously (according to them) dont even care about their existance... and rather then spread it as a "great social cause" they instead will declare that this is a product of a "syariah going to be" government... and if this propoganda continued by even a tiny community it can spread to the whole Papua tribes and people in no time... OPM would easily obtain "new-bloods" since they give 2 strong reason to fight for, tradition and religion... when a few skirmish between OPM-TNI, tribe to another, already sometimes threatened Indonesian economy, can you possibly think what a "full scale war" of TNI and (the new enforce) OPM would bring? from my opinion its chaos... and by the time "the good cause" should be tasted by the whole Indonesian people, this bill would already give more damage for the whole people who live in Indonesia...

        so please not now, when the whole Indonesian is already cleared from every social inequality issue or atleast already walk on a steady path towards it then make the bill happen. Indonesia got a lot of problem at hand right now, another mis-step could be mean a downfall for the whole effort to be a better place to live in.

        note : do forgive me for all the bad grammar or mis-placed sentences, i really hope most of you would still see what i am trying to say...
        10 step to eternity...

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Mr Fizzywig View Post
          Sorry dan but this is a false comparison. Fen-phen proved dangerous while it was being taken for the specific function it had been created, and under doctors supervision. That is why it was pulled.

          Let me say this again for the sake of clarity and hopefully finality

          It is the [SIZE=5]MISUSE[/SIZE] of alcohol which causes problems, which is why we have laws punishing people for their actions while under the influence of excessive amounts of alcohol. Alcohol, unlike for example tobacco, in and of itself is NOT a dangerous product if used correctly, responsibly and safely. Now agan, you can say it is addictive, which through overuse / MISUSE certainly is true. But your liver doesn't explode if you drink a glass of wine with a meal over a period of a year.

          And I know this to be a fact for the simple reason that I am not dead, I am not an alcoholic and I do not have an alcohol related disease.

          Here are some figures for you:


          (Prevalence of Current Alcohol Use in the US, 2010) "Slightly more than half (52.1 percent) of Americans aged 12 or older reported being current drinkers of alcohol

          The United States will enter 2010 with a population of roughly 308.4 million people (according to the U.S. Census Bureau)
          51.2 percent of the population = 160.7 million people

          In 2010, a total of 25,692 persons died of alcohol induced causes in the United States - See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Alco....Aq72SN4w.dpuf

          In 2010, a total of 25,692 persons died of alcohol induced causes in the United States

          These are the people who died directly from drinking alcohol

          (25,692/308,400,000 )*100 = [SIZE=5]0.008% [/SIZE]of users died as a direct result of drinking alcohol.

          From these figures we can see that it is hardly a deadly poison.

          Now in fairness, these figures do not include deaths attributable to the misuse of alcohol, such as drink driving, violence etc, but the point I am supporting is, once again, that alcohol itself is not a dangerous product, IF USED responsibly.
          Your numbers are deaths solely from alcohol and not from alcohol related accidents. Also, they come from a questionable, biased site. I dug up facts from the WHO, whereas you gave us crap from "drugwarfacts." Seriously? Way to prove my point.

          Your numbers also don't include the number of people injured by alcohol, nor the amount of productivity lost, nor the amount of violence associated with alcohol... honestly, your little detective work and its attending math is incredibly lazy.

          It's not the misuse of alcohol, it's a product which has the intended use of getting stupid. Keep your booze on your home shores and leave the local populace alone.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
            but lets talk about Papua...

            I still believe that most of Papua people still love this country, they are very pessimistic that other Indonesian or the Goverment care about them before, but ever since theres a new Idol winner from Papua and also the win (hopefully) of Jokowi-JK from the coming election they have a high hope that Jakarta (and all of Indonesian) would finally would look at them...
            Hahahaha... oh man. Papuans want to be rid of Indonesia, and with good reason. Indonesia is an incredibly racist society in regard to Papuans, and its colonial designs on their land definitely harms their relations.

            Keep your Indonesian Idol wins, they'd rather have an independent country. It's a bit like saying that racism against blacks in America was on its way out when Jackie Robinson started playing. No. Indonesia is more appropriately termed "Javanesia," as Indonesia is the colonial protectorate of Java rather than a pluralist society. The Papuans are not fools and recognize this, as do many other indigenous peoples who reject their occupation and

            Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
            These people would be easily choose independence rather than stay in a country that obviously (according to them) dont even care about their existance... and rather then spread it as a "great social cause" they instead will declare that this is a product of a "syariah going to be" government... and if this propoganda continued by even a tiny community it can spread to the whole Papua tribes and people in no time... OPM would easily obtain "new-bloods" since they give 2 strong reason to fight for, tradition and religion... when a few skirmish between OPM-TNI, tribe to another, already sometimes threatened Indonesian economy, can you possibly think what a "full scale war" of TNI and (the new enforce) OPM would bring? from my opinion its chaos... and by the time "the good cause" should be tasted by the whole Indonesian people, this bill would already give more damage for the whole people who live in Indonesia...

            so please not now, when the whole Indonesian is already cleared from every social inequality issue or atleast already walk on a steady path towards it then make the bill happen. Indonesia got a lot of problem at hand right now, another mis-step could be mean a downfall for the whole effort to be a better place to live in.
            I want to be very clear, so that you can fully understand this: Indonesia is not a pluralist society, but one that uses dissimulation to create the illusion of inclusion. Indonesia does not care about their existence, and has actively worked to ethnically cleanse their lands in order to replace them and ensure that they cannot hope for an independent West Papua. Your silly belief in Indonesia's pluralism betrays naivete and government propaganda.

            They must choose independence or perish as a distinct identity (or really, identities). The Acehnese have realized this, and that is why they have fought and continue to fight Indonesia. My sole hope for Jokowi's presidency is that he is much like Barack Obama, inept and ineffectual. The wisest of the rebel factions will take this opportunity to break free, and I suspect they will meet half-hearted resistance. Who are you to tell them they must remain in your country? Do you realize how many of these people want to be free of you? Do you realize that they do not believe in Indonesia's propaganda, nor recognize its sovereignty over them?

            Comment


            • #81
              Jezzuus,
              DaninAceh, you're an Indonesian noob. Stop talking like you're the the expert of all things Indonesian and/or moslem Indonesian (I read your other posts).
              Indonesia is perplexing. Deal with it!

              Comment


              • #82
                Nyon, you're gonna have to backup your posts with some actual content before you trash talk people like that. You sound like a tool.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I'm not trash talking. I responding to what I think is a 'sok tahu' post/poster. What 'backing up' do I need for that?. Read the post (which, for the record have no back up for his claim) which I'm replying to, that's my back up.
                  Indonesia is perplexing. Deal with it!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    The usual obsession with sex and alcohol from the religious folk. Meanwhile when it comes to the important issues in life, Muslim countries, for example, are found wanting. This guy has an interesting take on the issue and feels that Islamic values are better represented in no-Muslim countries. Also note that Ireland, whose people enjoy a drink or two, actually top the list.

                    [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]Askari then concluded that the Quran’s teachings are better represented in non-Muslim societies than in Islamic countries, which, he believes have failed to embrace the values of their own faith in politics, business, law and society.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                    [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]He said, Muslim countries use religion as an instrument of state control. “We must emphasize that many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination,” Askari asserted.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                    [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]
                    “Looking at an index of Economic Islamicity, or how closely the policies and achievements of countries reflect Islamic economic teachings – Ireland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Singapore, Finland, Norway, and Belgium round up the first 10.” Askari added.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                    [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]
                    He said, “If a country, society, or community displays characteristics such as unelected, corrupt, oppressive, and unjust rulers, inequality before the law, unequal opportunities for human development, absence of freedom of choice (including that of religion), opulence alongside poverty, force, and aggression as the instruments of conflict resolution as opposed to dialogue and reconciliation, and, above all, the prevalence of injustice of any kind, it is prima facie evidence that it is not an Islamic community.”
                    [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]http://alisina.org/blog/2014/06/18/are-non-muslim-countries-more-islamic/[/FONT][/COLOR]
                    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                    George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                      Hahahaha... oh man. Papuans want to be rid of Indonesia, and with good reason. Indonesia is an incredibly racist society in regard to Papuans, and its colonial designs on their land definitely harms their relations.

                      Keep your Indonesian Idol wins, they'd rather have an independent country. It's a bit like saying that racism against blacks in America was on its way out when Jackie Robinson started playing. No. Indonesia is more appropriately termed "Javanesia," as Indonesia is the colonial protectorate of Java rather than a pluralist society. The Papuans are not fools and recognize this, as do many other indigenous peoples who reject their occupation and



                      I want to be very clear, so that you can fully understand this: Indonesia is not a pluralist society, but one that uses dissimulation to create the illusion of inclusion. Indonesia does not care about their existence, and has actively worked to ethnically cleanse their lands in order to replace them and ensure that they cannot hope for an independent West Papua. Your silly belief in Indonesia's pluralism betrays naivete and government propaganda.

                      They must choose independence or perish as a distinct identity (or really, identities). The Acehnese have realized this, and that is why they have fought and continue to fight Indonesia. My sole hope for Jokowi's presidency is that he is much like Barack Obama, inept and ineffectual. The wisest of the rebel factions will take this opportunity to break free, and I suspect they will meet half-hearted resistance. Who are you to tell them they must remain in your country? Do you realize how many of these people want to be free of you? Do you realize that they do not believe in Indonesia's propaganda, nor recognize its sovereignty over them?
                      I never said that i believe that Indonesian are pluralist Dan. Never even once i showed at my previous statement or any before that i believe so, since it is indeed "not yet" achieved. But what most Indonesian (include Papua) wanted to believe is that we could be a pluralist nation that support all cultural identities as the heart of our nationwide identity. It is indeed difficult, and probably almost imposible, but that is what we wanted to achieve, that is our nationality goal. While your sceptical perspective is indeed more rational and most common among western societies, it is the same logic that most of Indonesian are against to (this is also the reason why at some occasion Indonesian people show a great resentful gesture towards the western). Since the day Indonesian declare it independence untill this very day, we knew that this is our challange but we never forget about the goal. I can describe more about this concept, but somehow i knew that no matter how i try, i know that you will instead call this as childish and foolish (in a way). And so i will stop, and hope one day i could show you the result instead.

                      Aceh and Papua are 2 different case Dan, the different lies on the reason to remain at the concept. Ever since the first time, Aceh already made a conditional support for Indonesian independence, while Papua give an unconditional support. Aceh never even once felt that they need to be integrated with Indonesia, while Papua see Indonesian unity concept as a solution to also unite the whole West Papua. You can clearly see like this, among Indonesian civil society is there any famous person from Aceh that also gain support from Acehneese? While contradictive to this, almost everyone who is famous from Papua also gain support from their homeland? (Thats why i put Indonesian Idol winner at our previous discussion).

                      Now why i mention Jokowi is one of Papuan source of hope (and probably the source of hope from some of Acehneese and by many Indonesian minority). Despite what most people think, i never see Jokowi as an Obama "wanna be". Both of them had very different goal and also different approach on how to achieve that goal. The only 1 thing that i see both of them share, is the fact that both of them are a "media darling", but thats all. Even i dont know exactly what is Obama goal for his presidency (that set him apart from US previous presidency), Jokowi goal is to provide a good system that can reach the basic humanitarian rights for all Indonesian equally, this kind of approach never been done at the previous presidency probably because its mythically imposible. Soekarno approach for unity in Indonesia is by ignitiate an Ultra-Nationalist concept, Soeharto approached with social-capitalist concept, Gus Dur approachment is base on tolerance, while SBY approach with his economic concept. Humanitarian concept (in exception of during Gus Dur era) is always overlook, this is what Jokowi wanted to offer, and this is also the reason why most Indonesia are having a "high hope". Please dont compare Indonesia to US in terms of system, theres not much of a chance for Obama to actually change anything in a system that had forged for almost 250 years. Indonesia is very much a newbie at terms of system, on which it also provide opportunity for the right leader to give his fresh idea to be implemented. Will jokowi succeed? i dont know, but i do know this as long as hope and faith still exist (even at a glimpse), there would always be a way.

                      Dont get me wrong, i never tell or force anyone to stay or to live in Indonesia (i'm not even sure yet to live here for the rest of my life). Even the unity concept is not my own, its Indonesian basic national concept. How many people who wanted to be free from "Indonesia"? a lot, how do i know? because i might be one of them. You see both of my parents is from Manado and i'm also a Christian, so i do know all the mistreatment by being a minority here in Indonesia, i know how it feel when someone mock my minority status, i've been there Dan, and probably far worst then you could've ever imagine. But regardless all that, me and most of those "independent seeker-Indonesian unity apatist" are still willing to give Indonesia another chance that might the last chance if its being mistreated (alcohol bill would show more of mistreatment then a "good cause" if it is implemented now). I am sure that most of the minority would share this feeling of mine, "what we want is progress treatment, and not some restrain order"

                      now why i said ban religion is better than alcohol (for now) in Indonesia (dont take this statement as i'm in a support of ban religion, try to look further), because it would solve atleast 1 social issue at Indonesia, while alcohol would give nothing to those who already not a frequent user of it, instead to some culture it would be an offence, and so it would solve nothing.

                      once again my apology if i had a misspell grammar or a misplace sentence, i still hope you would understand regardless.
                      Last edited by SomeoneHere; 21-07-14, 10:49.
                      10 step to eternity...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        @donting... hopefully, my previous post would give "a little bit" of background regarding what nyonyah is stating.
                        10 step to eternity...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Alcohol death product?

                          So Dan,

                          could you give us light on some Acehnese strange habit
                          to by all means avoid alcohol consumption while enjoying
                          mie goreng with marihuana?

                          Is it like that that both can be a gun when lets say you sit after
                          that in the car or drive a motorcycle? (provided that you are an irresponsible idiot of course).

                          daily hypocrisy on the plate?

                          Or better said, all this fuss about banning alcohol in Indonesia is just to show to other Muslim brothers that we are better Muslims. But there is important fact to be remembered: Indonesia is not a Muslim country, neither by constitution nor by reality. And where is then the respect? Where is the respect for Bali, Flores, Medan, Sulawesi, Manado, Papua? Where is the respect for millions of people from other religions living in Indonesia?

                          I would suggest a different issue. Balinese, please just ban the halal food in Bali. Some reason can be found easily. And Bataknese, just do send only pork meat on your markets...But there was mentioned something about respect...
                          Last edited by mike lampung; 21-07-14, 11:49.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            @Dan... my apology of forgetting to reply to one of your statement...

                            yes, indeed, some Indonesian are indeed racist to Papuan. But this racism apply because of the product of "Orde Baru" that usually put Black Henchmen (mostly Papuan, Malukuneese, or Timor) to do their dirty works, it probably because they physically can inflict more fear to the citizen. A stigma that until this very day the rest of us are trying to fight on. While regarding the "colonial design" i do believe its because no leaders in Jakarta have try to approach their citizen on a humanitarian basis, and so the "iron-fist" approach sometimes is seen as the only measure to preserve order in Indonesian furthest East and West regions. While i really dont know how Acehneese feel, but as an eastern Indonesian, the change that we expect of Jokowi would bring is his humanitarian approach.

                            by Jackie Robinson "playing" is not putting the racism away? yes i agree (from a neutral perspective, because i am not even a black american), but i do see it as an attempt to put racism away. You see Dan i do believe that by doing nothing or by having a "let it go" concept you cant expect a thick wall of of society misconcept to just go away, you have to work hard for it, and sometimes it would took multigeneration attempt. And regarding black american racism (from my "outsider" -who dont know how it feel- point of view), i do believe that every step that America took is meaningfull (from Lincoln to Obama), the US is clearly one of the successful pioneer in a fight against racism, and so if you are an American, please do teach us on your fight against racism, enlight us. Indonesian is still young, we need more inspiration from those whom history had shown a great deal of success in unifiying your land and fight against society problems. So please dont just judge us Dan, teach us.

                            sorry for putting it here, i'm kind of in bit hurry, so no more time to put this in my previous post.

                            btw, patient Dan, you are still fasting arent you?...
                            10 step to eternity...

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by lantern View Post
                              The usual obsession with sex and alcohol from the religious folk. Meanwhile when it comes to the important issues in life, Muslim countries, for example, are found wanting. This guy has an interesting take on the issue and feels that Islamic values are better represented in no-Muslim countries. Also note that Ireland, whose people enjoy a drink or two, actually top the list.

                              [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]Askari then concluded that the Quran’s teachings are better represented in non-Muslim societies than in Islamic countries, which, he believes have failed to embrace the values of their own faith in politics, business, law and society.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                              [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]He said, Muslim countries use religion as an instrument of state control. “We must emphasize that many countries that profess Islam and are called Islamic are unjust, corrupt, and underdeveloped and are in fact not ‘Islamic’ by any stretch of the imagination,” Askari asserted.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                              [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]
                              “Looking at an index of Economic Islamicity, or how closely the policies and achievements of countries reflect Islamic economic teachings – Ireland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Singapore, Finland, Norway, and Belgium round up the first 10.” Askari added.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                              [COLOR=#777777][FONT=Helvetica Neue][SIZE=2][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]
                              He said, “If a country, society, or community displays characteristics such as unelected, corrupt, oppressive, and unjust rulers, inequality before the law, unequal opportunities for human development, absence of freedom of choice (including that of religion), opulence alongside poverty, force, and aggression as the instruments of conflict resolution as opposed to dialogue and reconciliation, and, above all, the prevalence of injustice of any kind, it is prima facie evidence that it is not an Islamic community.”
                              [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]http://alisina.org/blog/2014/06/18/are-non-muslim-countries-more-islamic/[/FONT][/COLOR]

                              Yeah but the Islamic states ban fun, have call to prayer and brazenly boast about their present fasting (while gorging like a pig few hours later).. Isn't that enough?! Forget the betterment of society as long as alcohol is kept out of sight, along with women's faces
                              Last edited by Donting101; 21-07-14, 17:59.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                But what most Indonesian (include Papua) wanted to believe is that we could be a pluralist nation that support all cultural identities as the heart of our nationwide identity. It is indeed difficult, and probably almost imposible, but that is what we wanted to achieve, that is our nationality goal.
                                it is impossible for this to happen when the majority are muslim and are poorly educated

                                the Christians, Hindus and Buddhists around the world can get along with each other just fine, but by definition islam is not tolerant and it goes against the grain of the teachings of the Quran to even have these people as your friends. If Indonesia was made up of a balanced mixed bag of an equal amount of the 'six recognised religions' then we wouldn't have the bullying of the mosques and Muslims in minority areas, I dare say it would be one of the most awesome countries in the world culturally.

                                Comment

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