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Indonesia will be “alcohol free” soon ?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jaime C View Post
    Dan, you may be right in your figures, but I think you are sticking your head in the sand reality-wise.

    Alcohol certainly does damage society. Cigarettes are another huge problem. So is McDonalds, Burger King and lots of other fast food restaurants. Religion kills many thousands a year, too. And hard drugs kill more than marijuana.

    At what point do we become a nanny state? Making cigarettes or alcohol illegal at this point will only be counter productive. There are too many deaths from illegal alcohol as it is. Imagine what it would balloon to if illegal?

    Tax such things and try to educate the public. I'm sure that Indonesia will get tired of losing 50-60 year old men to smoking related sicknesses. I've seen people killed by drunk driving, so believe that people who do so should be in jail for a very long time. I don't think people take it serious here, sadly.
    Here's what I love: the belief that because prohibition failed America it will fail Indonesia. We can prevent serious alcoholism in Indonesia, a country with rather limited indigenous expression of alcoholism. It's not something that is culturally enforced in Indonesia, it CAN be stopped.

    The argument of "it's gonna happen anyway" is a moral blank check to absolve yourself of responsibility. Sorry, no, not a nanny state, we have a public health interest to ban alcohol for the same reasons why we force parents to immunize their kids or drivers to maintain a speed limit.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
      this is the reason why i detest Merah-Putih coalition, just because they owned the current Parliement they tought they can do whatever they want... why not just say it out loud i say, just change Pancasila Democracy into Syariah Pancasila before the new legislate member are in and probably declare Prabowo or any coalition figure as Indonesian next Caliph....
      Introduction of the bill is not religious in nature, and PDIP is one of the co-sponsors. Parliament is now too powerful in Indonesia, the country needs a stronger President & government to counter it. Otherwise, given more time & democracy, this country could become an Islamic State someday. DanInAceh once said (please correct me if I am wrong, Dan) something like, Hizbut Tahrir (the Indonesia version of the Muslim Brotherhood) is growing because of democracy in Indonesia.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by sul1995 View Post
        Introduction of the bill is not religious in nature, and PDIP is one of the co-sponsors. Parliament is now too powerful in Indonesia, the country needs a stronger President & government to counter it. Otherwise, given more time & democracy, this country could become an Islamic State someday. DanInAceh once said (please correct me if I am wrong, Dan) something like, Hizbut Tahrir (the Indonesia version of the Muslim Brotherhood) is growing because of democracy in Indonesia.
        This is somewhat correct. What I said was that Hizb ut-Tahrir enjoys more freedom in Indonesia because of its democracy, and that Indonesia is ineffective in combating it. Authoritarian states hate them, because they actively seek to dissolve their governments. They are rightly seen as a threat. Indonesia tolerates them, and they speak to a deep desire of Muslims.

        What I also said was that given democracy, Muslims will slowly enact our shari'a via democracy. I do not see these two as being in opposition.

        Hizb ut-Tahrir is bad news, though. They are much, much more dangerous than FPI ever could be.

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        • #34
          I had a good laugh at the thought of Indonesia "banning" anything.

          Just of the top of my head is a list of items that Indonesia currently bans:

          Narcotics.
          Driving without a license.
          Riding a motorcycle without a helmet.
          Underage driving.
          Trade of protected wildlife.
          Consuming protected wildlife.
          Littering.
          Prostitution.
          Bribing government officials.
          Software piracy.

          I can see/get all of the above within 30 minutes if I wanted to. Banning alcohol would change nothing in terms of the negative aspects, but definitely reduce/eliminate the positive aspects (tourism, tax revenue, responsible social drinking).

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
            Because. Math. Alcohol's benefits are still _______ with you people.
            Dan,If you do a simple search, you'll find info about medical studies that state some potential advantages in moderate alcohol consumption. (lowers HDL cholesterol, decreased risk for dementia, reduced risk for type 2 diabetes,...) Besides all these, there's also a stress relief and social aspect that can have positive impact on people's health. (it can make you happy)Moderation is the key word when it comes to physical & mental sanity for almost everything! The trouble is that some humans will alway abuse whatever they come into contact with and that's when trouble starts (as in harm to society).
            On verra!

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            • #36
              Alcohol 2.5-3m deaths, tobacco 5m. But both of these are "self harm" deaths.Deaths caused by religion tend to be harm to others.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by dafluff View Post
                I had a good laugh at the thought of Indonesia "banning" anything.

                Just of the top of my head is a list of items that Indonesia currently bans:

                Narcotics.
                Driving without a license.
                Riding a motorcycle without a helmet.
                Underage driving.
                Trade of protected wildlife.
                Consuming protected wildlife.
                Littering.
                Prostitution.
                Bribing government officials.
                Software piracy.

                I can see/get all of the above within 30 minutes if I wanted to. Banning alcohol would change nothing in terms of the negative aspects, but definitely reduce/eliminate the positive aspects (tourism, tax revenue, responsible social drinking).
                Observe the fatalist attitudes present: why bother banning anything when we can just get it illicitly? Indonesia will always be corrupt and inefficient.

                And so it will if people believe such a narrative. It does not have to be that way and we don't HAVE to tolerate millions of alcohol related deaths just because it's 'socially acceptable.'

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by okonumiyaki View Post
                  Alcohol 2.5-3m deaths, tobacco 5m. But both of these are "self harm" deaths.Deaths caused by religion tend to be harm to others.
                  No. Car accidents? That's probably the majority. Those who die are often NOT the drunk drivers, but those they hit.

                  So a few thousand deaths to fanatics and millions to drunk drivers. Which is bigger? Simple.

                  That's also not including all of the rape and abuse that comes with alcohol.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                    That's also not including all of the rape and abuse that comes with alcohol.
                    Well Dan, if you are going to bring rape and abuse of women into the discussion, what about all of the rape and abuse of women that has absolutely nothing to do with alcohol but can rather be associated with other things such as religious and/or ethnic beliefs in relation to women and their rights and/or place in society?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                      It would? Again. Math. That's really the issue at hand. Do note that I am arguing with minds who advocate legalizing prostitution because they believe in this myth of the empowered prostitute providing a valid public good. They won't be happy until Indonesia is every bit the decayed societies they left behind. Seriously, they probably complain about the growing blight back home and then race to bring it on over to Indonesia. It's lunacy.
                      what i meant is this... one day probably it should happen in Indonesia (free alcohol) but not now... right now religion (statistically) give more bad influence rather than alcohol in Indonesia... sure alcohol scientifically is more un-healthy...it kill more people i agree (my uncle died because of it)... and i am sure its not religiously acceptable, since no religion think that being drunk is a good idea...
                      but do they consider what most of the minority in Indonesia think?... try and ask people who supported OPM (Papua Liberation Oraganization) or try ask Bali citizen, i dare to bet that atleast 60% of them would say its a religious product... uneducated? half true... Uneducated and Fear is to be precise...
                      you once write something about Hamas propaganda to people at Gaza, more or less its the same situation to minority at Indonesia... the only different is the reason, PPP few years ago sponsored Syariah Bills, 12 years ago Islam extremist bombed Bali, few years later they bombed Jakarta, along the way you might seen alot of minority religious places are being target of multiple bully by the likes of FPI (and guess what the goverment still allow them to exist), even during election you can see various religious black campaign... how do you think the minority would feel?... and dont forget that "minority" do control a certain region at Indonesia...
                      Its a whole different story if no extremist ever exist in Indonesia nor the goverment would always do what best for everyone... since its not, do you really believe that by enforcing a sensitive bill (that can be inteprated by some as a religious product) would be wise?...
                      The goverment need to support all of its subjects, provide healing for them, give them a proper education, made them feel at home, and only afterwards they could give them a great bill without anyone would think its a religious product...

                      note : Syari'a cant cope with Democracy according to most Extreme Ulama, what they think can be co-exist is Syari'a and Pancasila
                      Last edited by SomeoneHere; 18-07-14, 17:18.
                      10 step to eternity...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by BAJakarta View Post
                        Well Dan, if you are going to bring rape and abuse of women into the discussion, what about all of the rape and abuse of women that has absolutely nothing to do with alcohol but can rather be associated with other things such as religious and/or ethnic beliefs in relation to women and their rights and/or place in society?
                        Just how much? We can quantify that, and it's a pittance compared to alcohol's role in abuse of women. Sorry, but the further I discuss the more desperate all of you become.

                        "but religion!" what a silly, silly false equivalence.

                        Aside from that, how does this tu quoque argument negate the fact that alcohol is central to the abuse of women? I mean, seriously? The best you guys can come up with is a distraction from alcohol's clear issues?

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                        • #42
                          I drink alcohol and i am proud to say i have never beaten anyone or been violent because of the fact, i have never raped a woman or hurt anyone or caused any damage whilst drunk driving, and my liver is fine thanks. All these cliches associated with drinking alcohol totally discard the hundreds of millions of people that drink responsibly on a regular basis. To use the violent rapist and drunk driver as an argument against alcohol just doesnt stand up any more than any other stereotype image.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                            This is somewhat correct. What I said was that Hizb ut-Tahrir enjoys more freedom in Indonesia because of its democracy, and that Indonesia is ineffective in combating it. Authoritarian states hate them, because they actively seek to dissolve their governments. They are rightly seen as a threat. Indonesia tolerates them, and they speak to a deep desire of Muslims. What I also said was that given democracy, Muslims will slowly enact our shari'a via democracy. I do not see these two as being in opposition. Hizb ut-Tahrir is bad news, though. They are much, much more dangerous than FPI ever could be.
                            Thanks Dan for the clarification. I agree that Indonesia’s adoption of western-style democracy only helps to hasten the country towards sharia law.

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                            • #44
                              We've all had this discussion at length before...
                              Theres no doubt many people abuse alcohol, along with many other legal and illegal substances.
                              Reality is, as I've said, even in RI alcohol is legal. If it was illegal, there would be no argument from me.
                              It's a choice. As adults we should be capable of that choice and wearing the consequences of that choice.
                              Things happen for a reason...

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                              • #45
                                Sure, lets all just agree that personal responsibility and personal choice no longer have a place in the cookie cutter world of political correctness and big government. The only problem of course is when your personal choice is taken from you.

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