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Indonesia will be “alcohol free” soon ?

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  • #16
    Some people just enjoy a drink Dan.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
      From the WHO

      http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs349/en/

      • Worldwide, 3.3 million people die every year due to harmful use of alcohol,2 this represent 5.9 % of all deaths.
      • The harmful use of alcohol is a causal factor in more than 200 disease and injury conditions.
      • Overall 5.1 % of the global burden of disease and injury is attributable to alcohol, as measured in disability- adjusted life years (DALYs).3
      • Alcohol consumption causes death and disability relatively early in life. In the age group 20 – 39 years approximately 25 % of the total deaths are alcohol-attributable.
      • There is a causal relationship between harmful use of alcohol and a range of mental and behavioural disorders, other noncommunicable conditions as well as injuries.
      • The latest causal relationships have been established between harmful drinking and incidence of infectious diseases such as tuberculosis as well as the course of HIV/AIDS.
      • Beyond health consequences, the harmful use of alcohol brings significant social and economic losses to individuals and society at large.


      Is it merely shari'a, or should we be considering alcohol a public health crisis bigger than most diseases?
      While I don't disagree with your facts and figures, how would data about the social costs of motor transport fare? Or course, we need to also look at the social benefits of alcohol and transport usage as well, before making recommendations.

      Would society tolerate a speed limit of say 60km/hour I wonder?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by johntap View Post
        While I don't disagree with your facts and figures, how would data about the social costs of motor transport fare? Or course, we need to also look at the social benefits of alcohol and transport usage as well, before making recommendations.

        Would society tolerate a speed limit of say 60km/hour I wonder?
        Benefits for speed limits are demonstrable, as are the benefits of transportation. What is much more murky are alcohol's benefits. So far I've heard tourist dollars, OK, and...

        There is something to be said for the enjoyment of alcohol. I am willing to consider this. I am willing to consider a ban on intoxication (defined as a legal blood alcohol limit), which is in line with what most of us live with already. However, I would suggest that alcohol be a controlled substance sold in extreme moderation allowing for consumption of only one or two mild drinks per day. This should be part of an effort to slowly eliminate the substance altogether.

        If alcohol were like sugar, another substance with a body count, I would be more amenable to keeping it around. Sugar harms those who consume it, but not often those around them. If we could eliminate alcohol's potential for harming others (accidents, violence, rape) I'd be OK with keeping alcohol around. As it stands now, why should I consider alcohol different from controlled substances? Cocaine is a fun, cool high. Let's legalize it because people enjoy it? That's just not a very convincing argument. The costs outweigh the benefits by a landslide.

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        • #19
          Why not ban religion? While it seems to keep many people happy it, in certain instances, also causes carnage.
          "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
          George Bernard Shaw

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
            Benefits for speed limits are demonstrable, as are the benefits of transportation. What is much more murky are alcohol's benefits. So far I've heard tourist dollars, OK, and...

            There is something to be said for the enjoyment of alcohol. I am willing to consider this. I am willing to consider a ban on intoxication (defined as a legal blood alcohol limit), which is in line with what most of us live with already. However, I would suggest that alcohol be a controlled substance sold in extreme moderation allowing for consumption of only one or two mild drinks per day. This should be part of an effort to slowly eliminate the substance altogether.

            If alcohol were like sugar, another substance with a body count, I would be more amenable to keeping it around. Sugar harms those who consume it, but not often those around them. If we could eliminate alcohol's potential for harming others (accidents, violence, rape) I'd be OK with keeping alcohol around. As it stands now, why should I consider alcohol different from controlled substances? Cocaine is a fun, cool high. Let's legalize it because people enjoy it? That's just not a very convincing argument. The costs outweigh the benefits by a landslide.
            The benefits are hard to quantify. But given alcohol is economically and culturally rooted in some societies it clearly must come with some social benefits. These would be harder to estimate I would say, than the costs. But they are there nonetheless. Social cohesion comes to mind from the "enjoyment" of consumption, which you acknowledge. I can't imagine a society which has known alcohol, without it. In the case of smoking, much scorned and much regulated, society has not moved much closer to rejecting it. One would assume because, again, there are hard to quantify social benefits. Your point on sugar is not indefensible - sugar does harm those around its abusers - the costs of public hospitalisation comes to mind.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Azni Azziz View Post
              An alcohol free world is a good step.
              Even my chemistry teacher said alcohol good in small portion. And come on.. many things are worse than alcohol and mainly people are the cause of it!

              World without pastis... can't imagine
              Dancing along the bumpy road of life. And it feels damn good!

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              • #22
                I'm absolutely again a ban of alcohol, even if I'm not a regular consumer.
                I'm all way for huge sensitization campaign about drinking moderately and the effect of alcohol.
                La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

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                • #23
                  Better ban cigarette
                  Lost in Jakarta's trafic jam

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                  • #24
                    I learned to vaping LM. but really hard for a chimney like me
                    Dancing along the bumpy road of life. And it feels damn good!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lantern View Post
                      Why not ban religion? While it seems to keep many people happy it, in certain instances, also causes carnage.
                      nice argument... dan, you were asking for an argument?... despite my disagreement on this argument, but at logical sense this would solve more major problems in Indonesia rather then alcohol...
                      10 step to eternity...

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                      • #26
                        On any giving night, if you go into Marlioboro or Alexis night club/strip club/brothels you will find dozens of Indonesian politicians, high level military and police officers, heads of business etc.... The decision makers in Jakarta, who in turn make the decisions for Indonesia love their alcohol and will never ban it nationwide. They will allow some areas that have no tourist and generally don't have people who drink anyway create bylaws to limit or ban the sale of alcohol, but this has already proven to create a black market for illegal and sometimes deadly homebrew.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
                          nice argument... dan, you were asking for an argument?... despite my disagreement on this argument, but at logical sense this would solve more major problems in Indonesia rather then alcohol...
                          Correction : not indonesia, but world.
                          Tihzho, where are you? This thread is calling you
                          Lost in Jakarta's trafic jam

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                          • #28
                            Dan, you may be right in your figures, but I think you are sticking your head in the sand reality-wise.

                            Alcohol certainly does damage society. Cigarettes are another huge problem. So is McDonalds, Burger King and lots of other fast food restaurants. Religion kills many thousands a year, too. And hard drugs kill more than marijuana.

                            At what point do we become a nanny state? Making cigarettes or alcohol illegal at this point will only be counter productive. There are too many deaths from illegal alcohol as it is. Imagine what it would balloon to if illegal?

                            Tax such things and try to educate the public. I'm sure that Indonesia will get tired of losing 50-60 year old men to smoking related sicknesses. I've seen people killed by drunk driving, so believe that people who do so should be in jail for a very long time. I don't think people take it serious here, sadly.
                            Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lantern View Post
                              Why not ban religion? While it seems to keep many people happy it, in certain instances, also causes carnage.
                              Because. Math.

                              How many people are killed by "religion" each year? Not too many. How many people are killed by alcohol? Millions. I mean... what? These two aren't even comparable. Religious charities and educational institutions are a solid benefit. Alcohol's benefits are still _______ with you people.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SomeoneHere View Post
                                nice argument... dan, you were asking for an argument?... despite my disagreement on this argument, but at logical sense this would solve more major problems in Indonesia rather then alcohol...
                                It would? Again. Math. That's really the issue at hand. Do note that I am arguing with minds who advocate legalizing prostitution because they believe in this myth of the empowered prostitute providing a valid public good. They won't be happy until Indonesia is every bit the decayed societies they left behind. Seriously, they probably complain about the growing blight back home and then race to bring it on over to Indonesia. It's lunacy.

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