Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hard-Liners Attack Church in Yogya

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Dan, speaking in tongue is written in the bible. happened on the pentacostal day. so i doubt that christian dont believe in speaking in tongue. yes presby , catholic should know about speaking in tongue, they just dont emphasize their speeches about it.

    have you ever really got the experience with people who speak in tongue for real Dan? i bet you haven't . Me, i dont speak in tongue, but i know some who do. for you they might be the hysterical sound , the 4Am screaming on the loud speaker sounds the same to me .. , you wont hear the hysterical sound because you dont sit in the church,but i have to listen the screaming everyday because of the loud speaker.

    people who speak in tongue are not automatically reluctant to go to the doctor for their kid or themselves, or extremely believe in their faith and neglect the norms. that would depend on the person. ironically , you said that pentecostal people refuse to go to doctor, believe that their faith would heal them, while some indonesian moslem prefer to go to ustads as such as guntur bumi instead of going to the doctor. they do the rukiah thing all the time, while shaking their hands. what would you call them?

    just because you some people do what you wrote it's very wrong to generalize all pentecostal people do that . same as, 'since al qaeda did 911, all moslem must be as evilish as them .. 'i have so many moslem friends who are kind and nice and less judgemental.

    tithing? what's wrong with super generous tithing? it's part of act of our obedience. if in the end it goes to the pastor's pocket, so what??? you expect pastors should wait outside their house waiting for money rain?? NO! just like what you do with zakat. have any non moslem questioned about zakat and where it goes to ? or part of your ongkos naik haji has been going to the minister of religion, that 'uang haji' finally goes to the pocket of government people. ... for me i rather support my pastor's life than the corruptor's expensive life style.


    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    Most? MOST? Pentecostals are not "most" Christians. There's at least 1 billion Catholics, a fair number of Orthodox, and even most Protestants don't believe in speaking in tongues. What you are speaking of is an extreme fringe of Christianity, one that is widely ridiculed in the West.

    As to the harm speaking in tongues does, ehhhhhhh. It's part and parcel of a larger scam perpetrated on the flock. Remember that these are also the people who believe in such lovely tenets as faith healing (which is not only unscientific; it's downright dangerous/abusive) and extreme tithing (which strangely seems to end up in the pockets of pastors...).

    Pentecostalism is not some harmless Christian fad, it is dangerous to its adherents and those under their care. Then you get into some more exotic flavors of it, like poisonous snake handling and strichnine drinking. That's not all of them, obviously, but an example of how INSANE Pentecostal congregations can get.

    Also, my apologies if you're personally insulted and took this to mean an attack on Christians in general.
    dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

    Comment


    • #47
      He said he was sorry for insulting but he keep goin

      Comment


      • #48
        what about this??
        dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

        Comment


        • #49
          because he doesn't genuinely feel sorry. too much contradictions

          Originally posted by thediamond View Post
          He said he was sorry for insulting but he keep goin
          dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
            Dan, speaking in tongue is written in the bible. happened on the pentacostal day. so i doubt that christian dont believe in speaking in tongue. yes presby , catholic should know about speaking in tongue, they just dont emphasize their speeches about it.
            No, they just plain don't believe in it. Pentecostals are alone in this practice. Really. All other Christians are willing to distance themselves from it, for rather obvious reasons.

            Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
            have you ever really got the experience with people who speak in tongue for real Dan? i bet you haven't . Me, i dont speak in tongue, but i know some who do. for you they might be the hysterical sound , the 4Am screaming on the loud speaker sounds the same to me .. , you wont hear the hysterical sound because you dont sit in the church,but i have to listen the screaming everyday because of the loud speaker.
            I have one experience with a Pentecostal woman. One of my dad's friends married a Pentecostal woman, and she was never a particularly stable person to begin with. Later in life, she developed cancer. She did the speaking in tongues thing, and she especially did the faith healing thing. She had breast cancer, got told she needed a masectomy and straight up said, "I'm gonna faith heal my way out of this."

            She died shortly thereafter.

            Incidentally, her funeral was the strangest ever. She stipulated that she be buried with her sunglasses on and with her cellphone turned on, just in case. At the funeral, somebody dialed the phone. No kidding.

            Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
            people who speak in tongue are not automatically reluctant to go to the doctor for their kid or themselves, or extremely believe in their faith and neglect the norms. that would depend on the person. ironically , you said that pentecostal people refuse to go to doctor, believe that their faith would heal them, while some indonesian moslem prefer to go to ustads as such as guntur bumi instead of going to the doctor. they do the rukiah thing all the time, while shaking their hands. what would you call them?
            Idiots. Irreligious, fitna-inspired morons. That's what I'd call them. Islam frowns on faith healing, what with such definitive ahadith as "seek medical treatments."

            Likewise for anyone else who does that. Except such people are worse than idiots, because those under their power are endangered. Take their kids away from them.

            Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
            just because you some people do what you wrote it's very wrong to generalize all pentecostal people do that . same as, 'since al qaeda did 911, all moslem must be as evilish as them .. 'i have so many moslem friends who are kind and nice and less judgemental.
            I am decidedly not generalizing. It is factual that Pentecostals believe in faith healing, among other harmful practices. This is a pathological branch of Christianity.

            As Ayn Rand once said, "Judge, and prepare to be judged."

            She further wrote, "
            [SIZE=2]“The precept: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” . . . is an abdication of moral responsibility: it is a moral blank check one gives to others in exchange for a moral blank check one expects for oneself."[/SIZE]

            I don't normally care for her writing, but she was dead on about this.

            Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
            tithing? what's wrong with super generous tithing? it's part of act of our obedience. if in the end it goes to the pastor's pocket, so what??? you expect pastors should wait outside their house waiting for money rain?? NO! just like what you do with zakat. have any non moslem questioned about zakat and where it goes to ? or part of your ongkos naik haji has been going to the minister of religion, that 'uang haji' finally goes to the pocket of government people. ... for me i rather support my pastor's life than the corruptor's expensive life style.
            Observe that questioning the fate of your money is somehow an act of spiritual mutiny; you're not having faith! This is precisely the harmful attitude I was speaking of, the attitude that denominations like Pentecostalism bring.

            You should absolutely be questioning where all of your money goes. If it is being misspent, you're not only a fool but an accessory to wealth mismanagement. Of course people should be cautious about things like this. Don't be silly.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by thediamond View Post
              He said he was sorry for insulting but he keep goin
              Actually, what I said was that I apologize if naughty misinterpreted this as an attack on Christianity in general.

              I will never say that speaking in tongues is somehow a healthy form of religious expression.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
                what about this??
                Same thing. Hucksters and frauds. Laugh at them and expose them. That is the correct course of action. Permitting it to continue based on "religious tolerance" is absurd.

                Comment


                • #53
                  - note: my internet is getting slow so i cant reply with the 'reply with quote, it resulted a weird look on my screen -

                  Dan, are you sure you dont mix pentecostal with christian scientific? .

                  .. i have a lot of pentecostal friends, and even my pentecostal pastors go to the doctors and got surgery at the hospitals ( not just one pastors..and not just one church.. ) . last time i was sick and needed surgery, those pentecostal friends came and pray... they asked "if possible that i could be healed without the surgery, but if not, please bless the doctors and nurses so the surgery would be fine according to His will" .. i cant see no wrong in their prayers.

                  faith healing is miracle. are you saying you dont believe in miracle Dan?

                  in the other hand christian scientific is totally different. just like tom cruise forbid katie holmes to have surgery when delivering their baby. which i absolutely disagree with them.

                  when i tithe, i question where it goes for sure. there's an update about how much money they get and what do they do with the money.
                  if big part goes to the pastor, then it's his blessing. If God doesnt want to give blessing toward him, there will always be a way that he wont enjoy the money. same like my moslem friends say' uang haram enaknya gak lama/ tidak bisa dinikmati"

                  but how much i tithe, it's the pact between me and Him. if i want to give 10% 20% or 100% or none that should be my right, no pastor should interfere with that. and do you question your masjid where do all those money go??
                  dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
                    - note: my internet is getting slow so i cant reply with the 'reply with quote, it resulted a weird look on my screen -

                    Dan, are you sure you dont mix pentecostal with christian scientific? .

                    .. i have a lot of pentecostal friends, and even my pentecostal pastors go to the doctors and got surgery at the hospitals ( not just one pastors..and not just one church.. ) . last time i was sick and needed surgery, those pentecostal friends came and pray... they asked "if possible that i could be healed without the surgery, but if not, please bless the doctors and nurses so the surgery would be fine according to His will" .. i cant see no wrong in their prayers.

                    faith healing is miracle. are you saying you dont believe in miracle Dan?

                    in the other hand christian scientific is totally different. just like tom cruise forbid katie holmes to have surgery when delivering their baby. which i absolutely disagree with them.

                    when i tithe, i question where it goes for sure. there's an update about how much money they get and what do they do with the money.
                    if big part goes to the pastor, then it's his blessing. If God doesnt want to give blessing toward him, there will always be a way that he wont enjoy the money. same like my moslem friends say' uang haram enaknya gak lama/ tidak bisa dinikmati"

                    but how much i tithe, it's the pact between me and Him. if i want to give 10% 20% or 100% or none that should be my right, no pastor should interfere with that. and do you question your masjid where do all those money go??
                    Tom Cruise is a scientologist, which has nothing to do with Christianity. Christian Science is something entirely different.

                    I do not expect miracles. No one should.

                    Your comments on money and pastors are disturbing, to be blunt.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      what's disturbing with that? you never give any money to your ustad?

                      Accepting money is halal corrupting money is haram...can you see the different?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        i will tell that to Moses.. and let him part the red sea with some

                        if my comments on money and pastors are disturbing to you, then.. well what can i say. that's what i believe.., call i also find your points annoying and insulting.

                        have you ever heard " lakum dinukum waliyadin" ?

                        sounds like it's a miracle if you can implement that in your daily life Dan


                        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post

                        I do not expect miracles. No one should.

                        Your comments on money and pastors are disturbing, to be blunt.
                        dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Does anyone apart from me believe that 'speaking in tongues' was originally people just speaking in another/foreign language at the time? Not some ridiculous incoherent made up on the spot babbling

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Maybe John Lennon,another Prophet died for our sins..Give Peace a Chance

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                              I thought I made it pretty clear that they (the Muslims) were shooting themselves in the foot. Let me restate that for the record. Arson attacks, threats of violence, murder and so on are all terribly ineffective ways of preventing Christianity from taking root in an area. In fact, it probably encourages them. It validates their world view that they are the righteous and are being "tested" in their faith through various trials and tribulations. They get off on this kind of thing, it's the martyrdom that they crave above all else. This is true of all Abrahamic faiths.

                              The antidote for Christianity, the most effective means of countering it, is to "hit them where it hurts." By that I mean developing stronger institutions than the ones they'll attempt to bring in. Christians have long preyed upon the destitute, so organizing religious charity from all other faiths is an effective means of countering their efforts. So too is establishing the validity of all other religions to the exception of Christianity. The Sultan would be wise to build more temples of other faiths and to encourage their development. None of the other faiths are an actual threat to Islam, so it's a token gesture that provides the cover of tolerance while simultaneously undermining Christianity.

                              Also, I take exception to your characterization that I am a "hard-liner." Take it back.
                              First of all, I am happy to retract what I have written about you. Your aversion to some sects of Christianity is pretty clear and in many occasions you express your hostile view towards them in this forum. The main difference between you and those hard-liners is arguably the mob mentality and their use of violent acts. But you object to be grouped into their camp despite sharing some unsympathetic views on Christianity. So my apologies.

                              Secondly, you didn't make it clear that these Muslims are shooting themselves in the foot. Your first response to the news I posted was a diatribe against Christianity rather than about these radicals who have gone amok. I am neither a hardcore Christian follower nor a muslim hater, but I despise those who think of people from a different religious group is less important than their own people. I don't like conservative morons who were up in arm against the plan of building a muslim school in Sydney. But I also hate these Muslim groups who hurt others in the name of religion.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by brodee View Post
                                Maybe John Lennon,another Prophet died for our sins..Give Peace a Chance
                                I must admit that J.L. crossed my mind when I read LittleMonster's post #24
                                The answer is 42 .... any questions? .

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X