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Hard-Liners Attack Church in Yogya

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Kimdub View Post
    Even though Dan did not give a yes or no answer, and combined with many of his other posts, I have a clear feeling of his thinking.

    From the beginning of Dan's participation here, I have simply substituted many words. When he has used Muslim or Allah or Acheh, I substitute Christian, God or American. So to me, there is no question on whether he is moderate or hardline. Any Christian or American who used the same words would have been run off this forum a long time ago.
    Do you believe they (and by "they" in this case I think you mean the forum as a collective) allow me to continue based on my being a non-Christian, Kimdub? That somehow they walk on eggshells due to my Muslim-y-ness? Eh, no. There are some among them that make no secret of how they feel about Islam and me.

    And psh. I dunno what you think I think but I think that you think that I'm swell.

    Cause I'm totally a sweetheart.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
      So, batshit weirdos attack batshit weirdos and Dan says there could very well be Islam involved. True that.
      Of course. Islam as a religion inculcates a solid belief in its exclusive truth. A lot of religions do, but Islam is probably the standout. It also permits violence to be enacted on its behalf. In fact, such violence may be commendable in some circumstances. This is writ large throughout the Qur'an and Sunnah. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying very good attention. :P

      It would be dishonest to wash our hands of the role that Islam plays. It's not just gangsters, and it's not just loons. There's definitely attributes of the religion that lend themselves easily to expressions of violence.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by LittleMonster View Post
        Some Religious freaks somehow think that hatred and war are the way to devote to their god. I'm not finger pointing to any religions since it has happened from a long long time ago. What if there were no religions at all? Would the world be in more peace? Would it be worse? Would it reduce wars since there would be one less cause to war.
        So when a future miss universe is asked how to actualize peace in the world, she would simply answer : ban the religions!
        And Miss Universe, what country does she hail from? She does hail from a nation-state, right? I see.

        And which political entities have instigated the most wars over the past few centuries, if not all of the wars? Ah, nation-states? Yes!

        So, in truth, she should be ripping off her "Miss ________" sash and condemning the atrocities of the states, yes?

        It's very tempting to suggest that getting rid of religion will miraculously cure the human desire for violence. Too bad it's untrue. This case, like most cases, involves multiple factors. It's not just religion.

        Consider my pet topic of defending Aceh, as an example. Is it "just religion," or is it actually a nuanced blend of ethnicity and nationalism and religious fervor? The latter would be more correct. Religion can give some legitimacy to violence, but no entity today gives more legitimacy to violence than governments. None.
        Last edited by DanInAceh; 04-06-14, 03:19.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
          I don't see it in binary. I can say, "no," but that wouldn't be truthful. I'd argue for the killing of a figure like Cromwell or bin Laden. I can amend it like this and we can agree. "I don't think it's OK to threaten or hurt civilians based on their religious beliefs." Active combatants and autocrats? No, I can't say the same.
          Thanlks for that, Dan. In my view, it's possible to "see it in binary" because any actions taken against someone would not be due to their religious beliefs - it would be due to their actions. Bin Laden was a reasonable target because of what he did to hurt other people, not because of which version of god he believed in. Sure, he was motivated by his religion, but if he'd been motivated by paranoid schizophrenia it wouldn't change things.

          (Anyway, I shouldn't have wandered into this thread - I deliberately stay out of them these days. What was I thinking last night?!?!?)

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          • #35
            7 churches is closed in cibubur. Just read the news. Who closed down the churches?

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            • #36
              Someone in this forum might calling christians are moron but please remember when Aceh hit By tsunami we collected stuff and money to helped Aceh and didnt think twice about the majority religion in Aceh.

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              • #37
                Dan, for me, what you wrote is very very insulting. most christian believe in speaking in tongue as the gift from holy spirit. and you call them weirdos ??
                you might not understand why they do that, but that action has never done anything harm to humanity. they dont even do it on a loud speaker at 4 AM
                am very disappointed in what you said


                Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]
                [/FONT][/COLOR]
                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]That[/FONT][/COLOR] is decidedly not a hidden agenda, they are quite public with their hostile evangelism. Pentecostals, in Indonesia, uh huh. You do realize that these are the speaking in tongues weirdos, right?
                dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
                  Dan, for me, what you wrote is very very insulting. most christian believe in speaking in tongue as the gift from holy spirit. and you call them weirdos ??
                  you might not understand why they do that, but that action has never done anything harm to humanity. they dont even do it on a loud speaker at 4 AM
                  am very disappointed in what you said
                  What is meant by "speaking in tongue" by you Dan and Naughtygab? Are you meaning the same thing?
                  Things happen for a reason...

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by naughtygab View Post
                    Dan, for me, what you wrote is very very insulting. most christian believe in speaking in tongue as the gift from holy spirit. and you call them weirdos ??
                    you might not understand why they do that, but that action has never done anything harm to humanity. they dont even do it on a loud speaker at 4 AM
                    am very disappointed in what you said
                    Most? MOST? Pentecostals are not "most" Christians. There's at least 1 billion Catholics, a fair number of Orthodox, and even most Protestants don't believe in speaking in tongues. What you are speaking of is an extreme fringe of Christianity, one that is widely ridiculed in the West.

                    As to the harm speaking in tongues does, ehhhhhhh. It's part and parcel of a larger scam perpetrated on the flock. Remember that these are also the people who believe in such lovely tenets as faith healing (which is not only unscientific; it's downright dangerous/abusive) and extreme tithing (which strangely seems to end up in the pockets of pastors...).

                    Pentecostalism is not some harmless Christian fad, it is dangerous to its adherents and those under their care. Then you get into some more exotic flavors of it, like poisonous snake handling and strichnine drinking. That's not all of them, obviously, but an example of how INSANE Pentecostal congregations can get.

                    Also, my apologies if you're personally insulted and took this to mean an attack on Christians in general.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                      What is meant by "speaking in tongue" by you Dan and Naughtygab? Are you meaning the same thing?
                      I linked a video earlier. Michelle, you've seen this, right? They get a mass hysteria of religious fervor. It's called *glossolalia*. Here, see for yourself and judge for yourself how you feel about it.



                      Harmless religious expression? No. Michelle, these are the people who believe in faith healing. Take their sick kid to see you? Nah! Trust in God! Faith heal that cancer away!

                      They're pretty dangerous, honestly.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                        I linked a video earlier. Michelle, you've seen this, right? They get a mass hysteria of religious fervor. It's called *glossolalia*. Here, see for yourself and judge for yourself how you feel about it.



                        Harmless religious expression? No. Michelle, these are the people who believe in faith healing. Take their sick kid to see you? Nah! Trust in God! Faith heal that cancer away!

                        They're pretty dangerous, honestly.
                        Certainly not quite the Sunday School I remember...
                        Things happen for a reason...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
                          Certainly not quite the Sunday School I remember...
                          Yep.

                          http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...937_story.html

                          "A Pentecostal couple who believes in faith healing has been sentenced to 3 1/2 to seven years in prison for neglecting to take their sick son to the doctor. Herbert and Catherine Schaible were already on a 10-year probation for the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, who died of untreated bacterial pneumonia, when their second son, Brandon, died last year. “We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil’s power,” Herbert Schaible told police after the death of his second son. The family are third-generation members of northeast Philadelphia’s First Century Gospel Church, which teaches it is a sin to call on the help of a doctor."

                          Not my idea of harmless. And we get cases like this frequently in the United States. It's an extremist flavor of Christianity, Michelle.

                          Anyway, all of this is distracting a bit from the actual thrust of the thread, which is that a campaign of religious terror has been waged in Jogja.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                            Yep.

                            http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...937_story.html

                            "A Pentecostal couple who believes in faith healing has been sentenced to 3 1/2 to seven years in prison for neglecting to take their sick son to the doctor. Herbert and Catherine Schaible were already on a 10-year probation for the 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, who died of untreated bacterial pneumonia, when their second son, Brandon, died last year. “We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil’s power,” Herbert Schaible told police after the death of his second son. The family are third-generation members of northeast Philadelphia’s First Century Gospel Church, which teaches it is a sin to call on the help of a doctor."

                            Not my idea of harmless. And we get cases like this frequently in the United States. It's an extremist flavor of Christianity, Michelle.

                            Anyway, all of this is distracting a bit from the actual thrust of the thread, which is that a campaign of religious terror has been waged in Jogja.
                            The reason the thread has become "distracted" is because somebody made an ad-hominem attack on believers of a faith.
                            This space is available for rent.

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                            • #44
                              And now someone from this forum attacking another believers.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by nd_eric_77 View Post
                                The reason the thread has become "distracted" is because somebody made an ad-hominem attack on believers of a faith.
                                Yes, yes. I concur. I totally shouldn't have been called a hard-liner, but y'know...

                                Oh, you probably mean my statements about Pentecostals. I have redacted my statements concerning Pentecostals to a degree. I will allow the delightfully funny, and also deeply tragic, record speak for itself. Here, have another video of people speaking in tongues.



                                The truth is this: among Muslims who do goofy things like drink camel piss I laugh at them. I laugh at them because they're being foolish. Ditto for this. Nobody should be defending these practices as somehow representative of well-adjusted humanity.

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